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Post by Admin on May 6, 2018 7:14:44 GMT -6
Study Begins: May 6, 2017
Discussion Begins: May 13, 2016
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As always, please study the Bible and provide biblical support for your viewpoint. |
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John R
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Post by John R on May 7, 2018 8:49:39 GMT -6
I believe the answer to this "trick question" begins with John 3: 17-18:
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."
It is the work of Jesus Christ, who gave up his royal position in heaven, to come into the world humbly as a fully human baby who would grow into a sinless man, suffer and die on a cross, taking the sins of all mankind upon himself to the grave and Hades and leave them there, rising from the dead to take up a seat next to God our Father in heaven; it is His work that brings salvation from the condemnation we are under as "sons of Adam."
I contend we can do nothing to "win or lose" our salvation. It is a gift that can only be received or rejected.
The question we must address under this topic is, "What is the evidence that we have received this wonderful gift?
More to follow..... |
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John R
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Post by John R on May 7, 2018 13:26:34 GMT -6
What is the evidence that you have received the free gift of salvation
1. John 10: 27 "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me." God knows his followers and his followers know His voice. There are many voices trying to get our attention. Differentiating the voices to hear the Truth only comes when one knows the Master. Those who do not and continue to walk in ways that oppose God and His Word, must examine themselves to see if they are truly saved, having received the free gift.
2. Desire to be an imitator of Christ is another piece of evidence of salvation. "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full." (John 15: 9-11) And further, "the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked." (1 John 2:6). If you are truly saved you will want to imitate his ways, walk the earth the way He did. We aren't perfect in the execution but the desire, if we are saved, burns within us and we practice day by day. James said, "Faith without works (evidence) is dead." This summarizes how we can see the evidence as our lives are changed to look more like Jesus'.
More to follow.... |
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Eric B
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Post by Eric B on May 8, 2018 23:45:36 GMT -6
Is it possible, once you are saved, to lose your salvation?
First, I would like to clarify that “Lose” is probably not the right word although it is used frequently in discussions. It’s not like you woke up one morning and “lost” your salvation; like you lose your car keys. So in the context that I write, it will be from the perspective of forfeiting one’s salvation.
I will begin with an illustration, explain where I’ve been and then state what I believe is true from the scriptures.
Suppose Mr. Tin-Man confesses Christ to be His Savior. He appears to have a new heart; his former shallow self-absorption is transformed into a giving person. He encourages God’s people, evangelizes, and even becomes a deacon at a local church. He disciples new believers and then slowly drifts away until he becomes vulgar, blasphemes God and eventually dies in that state.
One side of the camp would point to Mr. Tin-Man and say, “See, there it happened. Mr. Tin-Man lost his salvation.”
The other side would point to Mr. Tin-Man and say, “Mr. Tin-Man was never saved. He was religious, but never truly believed.”
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Eric B
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Post by Eric B on May 8, 2018 23:51:27 GMT -6
As a young Christian, I struggled over certain passages in Hebrews and concluded that salvation could be lost.
For example, Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
I struggled with this as a new believer because I thought this can only refer to the believer since only a believer could have tasted of the heavenly gift and been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted of the powers of the age to come.
I also struggled with Hebrews 10:26-27, “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.”
I thought surely this is speaking about receiving, as in receiving Christ and therefore applies to believers.
But the truth is that these passages are referring to the unbelievers who have tasted and who did receive the Word.
As in the case of Hebrews 6:4-6, these are ones who tasted, but did not make it a part of their lives. Rather than receive the Word, they fell away from it. They rejected it and thus they were never saved.
In Hebrews 10:26-27, we see there was not a changed life. Salvation of a person demands change. As it says in James 2:14, “What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” Faith and works go together.
Matthew 7:22-23 also addresses the questions coming out of the book of Hebrews, as well. The Lord clearly shows why He rejects on Judgment Day. It is not those who “lost” their faith or salvation, but those whom the Lord never knew. These never had a relationship with Him. They were never saved (although they may have been very religious).
In 1 John 2:19 it states, “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.”
Those who become an apostate are revealing that they are not true believers, and they never were.
In 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 it plainly states, “…for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.”
This is speaking in context with the coming of the man of lawlessness. Why will God judge them? “…Because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.” He is referring to unbelievers.
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Eric B
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Post by Eric B on May 8, 2018 23:55:30 GMT -6
So what does the Lord communicate about those who are believers?
John 10:27-29 states, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”
The Lord did not give His Word to be broken. If His sheep will never perish, then He means what He says. His Word is true. His sheep will have eternal life.
In John 1:12 it says, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,”
Here the Lord is taking ownership of His children. Nowhere in the scriptures does God disown the believer in Christ.
John 14:2-3 states, “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.”
If He says He is coming for us, He will keep His Word.
John 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”
He will not disown the believer. It is not based on the believer’s merit, but on God who makes the promises.
In 2 Timothy 2:19 it says, “Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."
We are saved by God’s grace and are called to abstain from wickedness.
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Eric B
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Post by Eric B on May 9, 2018 0:05:08 GMT -6
One last thought. Early in my Christian life, as I wrote before, I believed that one could lose their salvation. There was a point where I believed I had committed the unpardonable sin. 1 John 5:16 says in part, “…There is a sin that leads to death;…” and in Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death,…” It seemed like I was abandoned by God. So I determined that no one I met would have to suffer the same fate. I preached the gospel to whoever would hear it. I thought that although I could not avoid hell, at least I might lead some to Christ so they don’t have to go to hell. I preached like this for about 8 months and usually saw about 1 person come to Christ every week. I couldn’t keep up with the discipleship, so I enlisted others and soon other churches. This went on and I saw some of these go into the mission field, others into the ministry, others grow in their walks with the Lord and some went back to the world. One day a man (I hardly knew) came up to me and said, I know this is weird, but “You could not have the desires you have if you had committed the unpardonable sin.” And then he said God is waiting to speak to me. Then he left and I was floored because I hadn’t told anyone what I had believed. But I learned that day, that as long as I have any desire for the things of God or have conviction for the stuff I am doing wrong, that this was proof to me that I am still His child. I am not saved by any work of my own, it is all of Christ. Likewise I cannot become unsaved by any work of my own.
In conclusion:
The whole premise of forfeiting salvation lies in the belief that salvation is by works. I hope I made it clear that salvation is by grace alone through faith in Christ. There are many more verses and passages that show this, but I trust this is sufficient.
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JB
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Post by JB on May 12, 2018 18:22:10 GMT -6
I beg your forgiveness in advance for the length of my following posts. I believe this is a very important question to answer thoroughly, and there are several common misunderstandings and conclusion-jumpings that require a pretty thorough study. So, I have a lot to write and deeply desire dialog.
I will first start with a long summary what I believe the Bible teaches about this issue. Following that, I'll provide scriptural support for what I believe. I am guessing that most of the things I say in the first part are things that you already know from scripture. It's just a matter of assimilating them.
jb
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JB
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Post by JB on May 12, 2018 18:22:40 GMT -6
SUMMARY POSITIONWe need to decide - Do we believe salvation is by grace or by law? If it is by law then it can no longer be by grace, and vice versa. I think we all agree that we are saved by grace alone.. If we are not saved by law then we are not saved through works, for works require a Law to determine whether they are good or bad. If we are not saved through works, then neither can we sustain our salvation through works nor become unsaved by a lack of works. As long as we are in grace, we are free from the Law that pronounces good or bad (sinful or righteous) judgment on our works. This doesn't mean there is no right or wrong. It simply means there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because we are in Him through grace. That is, He has abolished the Law that would otherwise judge and condemn us. God will transform us by renewing our minds (Romans 12:2) so that we may test and approve His good, pleasing, and perfect will. He will create someone new out of us that pleases Him in our actions. That itself is the rest of the salvation process. Right now, that comes through the transforming work of His Spirit within us and the mediating forgiveness through His Son. In the end it will come through complete transformation when we can stand in His presence unmediated. For now, our justification is found in Christ's work, not in our own. We are justified through grace – that is, through forgiveness. Just as we can't work our way into salvation, neither can we sin our way out of it. KEY TRUTH:
Salvation is a process that is currently incomplete and will be completed in the end time (1 Peter 1:5).
When we rest at the throne of God after being completely transformed into the image and likeness of His son, the salvation process will be complete. We will be fully saved. We will never lose our salvation once we have it. But today, here on this earth, we can voluntarily abort the process of being saved. How? It is not by sinning. It is not by bad works. It is not be a lack of good works. It is by reversing the mode through which we were offered salvation in the first place. Grace is offered to us now to keep us in the Father's favor until we are completely transformed. We are now justified through His grace and are waiting to be saved. Grace is something we choose to accept or choose to reject. If we choose to be justified by grace, choosing to abandon that same grace will un-justify us, because the only alternative - our works - can't justify us. What does "abandoning grace" mean? It means returning to law - to works, to obedience - for justification. It means abandoning forgiveness and transformation in favor of law and self-righteousness. It's a shame that many who react against "once saved, always saved" replace it with "if saved, barely saved." It's a shame that many who believe we can abort the salvation process believe we do so based upon a works vs. sin dynamic. By holding this position, they show themselves to be legalists, which makes them the ones most in danger of actually falling from grace by returning to Law-Works righteousness. Paul said quite clearly that some believers in Galatia had done this very thing. " You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law ; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness" (Gal 5:4-5, NASB). Clearly, the righteousness we hope for and are waiting for is God's, not our own. His righteousness in us IS ITSELF our salvation. So, we cannot lose our salvation once we possess it, which we will not do until the end. I have attached a document where I pulled together a large number of scriptures that make clear that salvation is currently an incomplete process. Please read it if you need to understand where I am coming from on this. KEY TRUTH:
Though we cannot lose our salvation after we are saved, WE CAN FALL FROM GRACE right now. We can do this by returning to confidence in obedience and works for justification, since works-based righteousness and grace-based righteousness are in opposition to each other.Grace is a difficult thing for all of us to fully accept. For some, I think it's a dependence issue - "If I don't get to earn it, I don't want to call it mine. I'm not a charity case. OK, maybe I can't work enough to *fully* earn it, but I'm at least going to earn as much of it as I can!" For some, I think it's a trust issue - "If I fully rely on God's grace, will God *really* save me by that in the end, or is He going to say 'well, yeah, but *that* sin in your life was just far too bad. You're out!'?" My own resistance to His radical grace is more likely the latter, but I think both are common. Before grace, we were objects of God's wrath. What fueled that wrath? " The law brings wrath" (Romans 4:14). Law is more than a set of standards of right and wrong. If that's all it was, we'd just call it "principles" or "values" or something weaker like that. Law is a set of standards by which we are righteous or condemned - pronounced innocent or guilty - based upon our obedience or lack of obedience. We don’t have to break multiple laws to be guilty. Breaking just one law makes us guilty. We all know we can't live up to law. I can't even claim that I fully live up to human law (I sometimes speed, and I threw my banana peel out the window while driving the other day), let alone God's law. The only way God could declare us innocent (sinless, justified, righteous) in order to save us was by removing law as our condemner. He removed the guilt by removing the thing that declared us guilty. He didn't change the standards of right or wrong, good or bad. Instead, He removed the condemner. To take it a half-step further: - When we were sinners by the law, our justification could only be by perfect works. - Now that we are free from the law's condemnation, our only justification is only by grace. We misunderstand the radical nature of God's grace if we err on either side of these theological truths. We are free from the law that condemns us; otherwise we would still be objects of God's wrath. Freedom from law and its condemnation is the essence of God's grace. Being under grace requires being free from law. And " where there is no law there is no transgression" (Rom 4:15). If we claim for ourselves a righteousness that is apart from law (Rom 3:21), we need to fully accept that it has nothing to do with law, works, merit, obedience, or any related concept. God freed us from bondage to sin by freeing us from condemnation by removing law. That is the truly amazing grace that saved a wretch like me. He couldn't have saved me in any other way than to remove from me the very thing that condemned me. Given this truth - that there is no longer a law to condemn me - there is nothing to say "Whoops! You sinned one too many times. You're out!" My sin cannot disqualify me because there's nothing left to declare me guilty! This is where that uneasy feeling - the spiritual tension - comes in. This is where my head swirls and I want to react with "What shall I say, then? Shall I go on sinning so that grace may increase?" (Rom 6:1). And the answer is, of course, " By no means! I died to sin. How can I live in it any longer?" (Rom 6:2). But I'm not good enough! I'm not strong enough to give God the holy living that I want so desperately to give Him when I realize He saved me this way! I want to please Him and show Him honor by my pure living, but I can't do it! This is frustrating!" Fortunately, He took care of that part, too. He chose to give me the opportunity to live a new life. " If I have been united with Him like this in His death, I will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection. For I know that my old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that I should no longer be a slave to sin" (Rom 6:4-6). After moving me from law to grace, from death to life, He began a process of renewing me and transforming me into the image of Christ. He didn't do this by re-imposing law on my life (which is external) but by gradually changing me (which is internal). There is still no law to condemn me (or I'd still be under His wrath). That has been replaced by grace and renewal. And that is why we can't sin our way out of salvation any more than we can work our way into it. NEXT UP, BIBLICAL SUPPORT
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JB
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Post by JB on May 12, 2018 19:05:59 GMT -6
Biblical SupportI feel it’s important to define terms here: Falling fro Grace. Losing Salvation. Those two phrases are often used as synonyms. They are very different things. My conclusion that you can fall from grace. You cannot lose your salvation. LOSING SALVATION (OR, “BECOMING UNSAVED”)
You cannot lose your salvation. You don’t have it yet! That raises questions and nuances to explore. But the gist of my understanding of the Bible is that God has promised salvation to us, and we can have unwavering hope and trust in that promise. God will never let us go, never kick us out, never renege on His promise– not even because of our sin. We cannot “sin our way out of salvation” any more than we could “righteous our way into salvation.” We are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves. It is a gift of God (Ephesians 28; 2 Corinthians 3:5). So I do not believe we can lose our salvation. Once we are saved we will always be saved. Salvation is irrevocable. God will never choose to abandon those who have turned to Him (Hebrews 13:5). The extremely important point here is that whether we are saved or not has nothing at all to do with us. We do not choose to be saved. God alone decides whether we will or will not be saved. Grace is different story, however. We choose grace. He offers it, but we choose it. We receive His grace by our own free will, and by our own free will we can abandon (fall from) it. To fall from grace simply means to return to law and its condemnation. We were in bondage to the law before we were saved. Grace broke that bondage. If we subject ourselves to bondage to law again – as those in Galatians 5 were doing – then we of necessity fall from Grace. Grace requires the absence of law. They cannot coexist.
ROMANS 4
Paul's focus in Romans 4 is not on what I do. It is on what God does when I do what I do. And that is the focus of my statements as well. From God's perspective, you and I cannot sin. Why? Because "where there is no law there is no transgression" (Rom 4:15). There is no law to judge us. If there was, we would be objects of wrath, because "the law brings wrath" (Rom 4:14). Before jumping to other scriptures that talk about our sins, we need to deepen our appreciation of God's grace, which is Paul’s focus here. If we are sinners by the law, then our justification can only be by works. We miss God's grace if we err on either side of that theological truth. The law that condemns must be the same one that justifies (Rom 4:1-5)! If we claim the righteousness that is apart from law (Rom 3:21), we need to FULLY accept that it is apart from law - which, again, means that there is no transgression. God no longer judges us by law! God has freed us from bondage to sin by freeing us from condemnation by the law. To Him, we no longer sin. As long as we're in Him, the bad things we do – things that are against a law that no longer condemns us - are no longer sin. Looking ahead in Romans (which I don't want to do very much before basking in this grace), He did something else. He created a new man in me (Romans 6) and transformed me by the renewing of my mind so that I could discern His will (Romans 12). But those aren't the thrust of Romans 4. Paul wants his readers to fully accept grace by fully understanding that they are no longer condemned (a thought which reaches its apex in Romans 8) because there is no longer a law that condemns them before going on. Thus, from God's perspective, we can no longer sin. 1 JOHN
1 John 2:27, John shows his confidence that these believers were well grounded. No one needed to teach them – they were abiding in this grace. Yet he repeats his imperative (which implies a condition) at the end of the verse – “abide in Him.” 1 John 2:28, John needs to say it one more time – the imperative, abide in Him... “so that” (this is again conditional), “when He appears we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.” I think the conditional statements here are obvious. 1 John 2:29, If (conditional) you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him. Now, this verses is actually bringing the meaning of the prior verses to a head. John already confirmed that they know He is righteous, but the condition of that is emphasized even here with the “If.” And here’s the clincher – John is pointing them to Jesus’ righteousness. Although the Greek word (poieō) is at other times translated weaker than “practice” (e.g., bear, become, carry, have, show), I’m comfortable with it meaning practice in this context. But it is always the righteousness of God Himself that we practice (or bear, or carry, or have, etc.). It results in righteous actions from us, but not on our own accord. And the righteous from God is Paul’s message throughout Romans. I see many passages in the Bible that say God will never quit on us. I see many passages that say nothing outside of ourselves can cause God to quit moving us. But I see nothing in scripture that says we cannot choose to abandon God’s grace and love (and some passages that say we can). Nor do I see anything that says that if a person chooses that, they were never there to begin with (not even in John 10 or in the parable of the seed). I. PRESENT: In one sense we may say that we “were saved,” “are saved,” or “have been saved” Jude 3
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Titus 3:4-7
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. Romans 5:10
We have been reconciled through His death, we will be saved through His life. II. FUTURE: But in the most complete sense, we “are being saved” or “will be saved” Hebrews 9:27-28
27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. 1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are [“being” is implied] saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 1 Peter 1:5
He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. Hebrews 6:9-12
Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. 1 Peter 1:8-9
Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. Romans 8:22-25
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. Romans 13:11-12
And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. 1 John 3:1-3
How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
Galatians 5:5
But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.
III. Can we “lose salvation” or “fall from grace?”
The answer is no and then yes. We can’t lose salvation once we fully possess it, which will be in the end. But we can fall from grace by turning our backs on grace and returning to a legal, self-righteous system of salvation.
Galatians 5:1-5
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. IV. Summary: In the most complete sense, we are not saved until our resurrection. So, we can’t “lose salvation” because we don’t have salvation. You can’t lose something you don’t have. Right now God has given us hope of salvation. He has promised us our inheritance through grace. His is taking us through a process of refinement. Right now He gives us purpose and gives us His Holy Spirit - “set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come” (2Cor 1:22). Right now, salvation is a done deal from God’s perspective. Our hope is secure. The process will continue and be complete at our resurrection when He “transforms our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body” (Php 3:21). We can never sin so much that God will reject us. God doesn’t save only people who are good enough, so He doesn’t abandon those who aren’t good enough. God will never abandon us. He will never choose to remove His grace from us. But we can choose it. We had the free will to accept God’s grace; we likewise have the free will to reject it. If we turn away from grace and hold ourselves accountable to law – i.e., to fear that we will be saved only if we’re good enough to be saved – then we will fall from grace. That is what Galatians 5:4 (above) is about. In that situation, Christians were being taught that they had to be circumcised in order to be saved. Paul said that if they turn to that sort of “works-righteousness” – afraid they aren’t good enough to be saved, trying to continually hold onto their salvation with their actions – then they have been alienated from Christ and have fallen from grace. Grace and law have no part in each other. They are completely incompatible. It is both ironic and unfortunate that those who teach that one can fall from grace tend to be the most legalistic of believers.
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Post by Admin on May 13, 2018 7:33:40 GMT -6
I contend we can do nothing to "win or lose" our salvation. It is a gift that can only be received or rejected.
John, that is very well stated. |
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JB
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Post by JB on May 13, 2018 8:41:54 GMT -6
As a young Christian, I struggled over certain passages in Hebrews and concluded that salvation could be lost.
For example, Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
I struggled with this as a new believer because I thought this can only refer to the believer since only a believer could have tasted of the heavenly gift and been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted of the powers of the age to come.
I also struggled with Hebrews 10:26-27, “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.”
I thought surely this is speaking about receiving, as in receiving Christ and therefore applies to believers.
But the truth is that these passages are referring to the unbelievers who have tasted and who did receive the Word.
Eric, I too struggled with those Hebrews passages. You and I see Hebrews 6:4-6 differently. I wanted to believe it was referring to someone like Judas Iscariot, who hung out with Christians and even did some Christian work, but eventually turned his back on Christ. But I have trouble thinking that someone who has never accepted God's grace could have taken part in the Holy Spirit or tasted the heavenly gift The Greek translated "taste" is geuomai (γεύομαι). It normally has the connotation of ingesting, though it could be just touching something with the tongue. More importantly in my mind is the statement that they were partakers. The Greek translated "partake" is metochos (μέτοχος). It implies a partnership. In Hebrews 3:14-19, the writer defines the word "partaker" as he uses it and gives us greater insight into what he means in chapter 6 Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, 15 while it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.” 6 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.So throughout this section, he has in mind people who act like the Israelites in the wilderness. They indeed began as God's children of the promise, and they were on their way to that promise. But along the journey they turned their backs on the promise. Moving back to Hebrews 6, I read this as those who genuinely accepted grace and were on the journey toward salvation [see notes in my own study regarding salvation being something for us in the future rather than in the present]. But they abandoned that. I believe the "heavenly gift" that the Hebrews writer says his subjects tasted of is grace. They abandoned legal righteousness and accepted God's grace. But at some point, they chose to once again rely on legal righteousness. In doing so, just like those in Galatians 5:4, they fell from grace. |
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John R
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Post by John R on May 16, 2018 18:38:09 GMT -6
"That is what Galatians 5:4 (above) is about. In that situation, Christians were being taught that they had to be circumcised in order to be saved. Paul said that if they turn to that sort of “works-righteousness” – afraid they aren’t good enough to be saved, trying to continually hold onto their salvation with their actions – then they have been alienated from Christ and have fallen from grace."
There is a "pastor" Andrew Farley who presents on Sirius XM #131 who claims to answer bible questions for those who call in. He claims that you must be baptized to be saved referring to Mark 16:16. Isn't this a bit like your reference to Galatians and circumcision? My take on Farley's view, is that baptism is an outward sign that you have received the free gift but not a requirement in the most legalistic sense. Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." I do not agree with Farley's strict theological stance, but do believe that Jesus challenges us to be active in our faith, bringing Him glory and getting out of our comfort zone. Faith without "evidence," may be suspect, but only God knows our hearts.
To me, salvation through grace is such a wonderful gift that our gratitude should be difficult to contain. Evangelization should be the easiest missions activity a Christian engages in if he/she fully comprehends the gift of eternal life with Jesus Christ that has been handed to him/her. We should all explode with gratitude always and be a magnet for the lost by our unbridled joy.
Blessings! John
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JB
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Post by JB on May 16, 2018 19:43:55 GMT -6
"That is what Galatians 5:4 (above) is about. In that situation, Christians were being taught that they had to be circumcised in order to be saved. Paul said that if they turn to that sort of “works-righteousness” – afraid they aren’t good enough to be saved, trying to continually hold onto their salvation with their actions – then they have been alienated from Christ and have fallen from grace."
There is a "pastor" Andrew Farley who presents on Sirius XM #131 who claims to answer bible questions for those who call in. He claims that you must be baptized to be saved referring to Mark 16:16. Isn't this a bit like your reference to Galatians and circumcision? My take on Farley's view, is that baptism is an outward sign that you have received the free gift but not a requirement in the most legalistic sense. Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." I do not agree with Farley's strict theological stance, but do believe that Jesus challenges us to be active in our faith, bringing Him glory and getting out of our comfort zone. Faith without "evidence," may be suspect, but only God knows our hearts.
To me, salvation through grace is such a wonderful gift that our gratitude should be difficult to contain. Evangelization should be the easiest missions activity a Christian engages in if he/she fully comprehends the gift of eternal life with Jesus Christ that has been handed to him/her. We should all explode with gratitude always and be a magnet for the lost by our unbridled joy.
Blessings! John
John - I don't know anything about Andrew Farley, but the tradition I'm part of teaches the way he does about baptism. At least the "mainline" teachers in our tradition teach that way - if you aren't baptized as a believer, you aren't saved. Many I know in our tradition have softened up on this topic, though. I've never been much of a party-line guy. For myself, I believe believer's baptism by immersion (Greek "baptizo" means immersion, a fact that is not disputed even among those who sprinkle or pour) was practiced in the New Testament church in all cases of "conversion" - that is, for everyone who accepted Christ's grace. It wasn't questioned. Baptism was a carry-over from a Jewish practice for proselytes. If someone who was not of Israel wanted to become an heir to the promise, they would be immersed. Because the New Testament church understood themselves to be the true continuation of Israel, they continued the practice. I won't belabor either of those topics (baptism or Israel) here. I do think the New Testament teachings are very strong about the importance of immersion for believers (1 Peter 3:20-21; Romans 6:3-6, Acts 2:37-38,etc.). So I will baptize every new believer I lead to Christ and teach them the same, and I place no value on infant baptism since infants aren't believers. However, I would never consider a believer to be headed for damnation because he or she wasn't baptized. That is what hard-line teachers in my tradition would teach and I'm guessing what Farley would teach as well. That is legalistic pure and simple. |
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Eric B
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Post by Eric B on May 16, 2018 22:28:10 GMT -6
But I have trouble thinking that someone who has never accepted God's grace could have taken part in the Holy Spirit or tasted the heavenly gift The Greek translated "taste" is geuomai (γεύομαι). It normally has the connotation of ingesting, though it could be just touching something with the tongue. More importantly in my mind is the statement that they were partakers. The Greek translated "partake" is metochos (μέτοχος). It implies a partnership. ... Moving back to Hebrews 6, I read this as those who genuinely accepted grace and were on the journey toward salvation [see notes in my own study regarding salvation being something for us in the future rather than in the present]. But they abandoned that. I believe the "heavenly gift" that the Hebrews writer says his subjects tasted of is grace. They abandoned legal righteousness and accepted God's grace. But at some point, they chose to once again rely on legal righteousness. In doing so, just like those in Galatians 5:4, they fell from grace. Jb, I partly understand where you are coming from. But, I do not see in the NT that when we receive Christ, that we are actually receiving grace instead. We receive grace from God because we receive Christ but not in place of salvation. Romans 10:13 "for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Now back to Hebrews 6. The Greek word translated 'taste' is geuomai. However I do not believe that is the exact word here. The word in Hebrews 6:4 is geusamenous (γευσαμένους). It is translated, "have tasted" and means something like, "to feel, to make trial of, to experience". I found it is used twice in the scriptures, once in Hebrews 6:4 and again in Hebrews 6:5. A Christian is not making trial of the heavenly gift or the word of God. That is something the unbeliever does when he hears the Word or sees God working through Christians.
In Hebrews 6:4 it says, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit," The word 'enlightened' comes from the word phōtisthentas (φωτισθέντας) meaning "to bring to light, to make evident". The word preceding it is 'once' and is used a number of times. 2 Corinthians 11:25 "...once I was stoned," Hebrews 9:7 "...the high priest enters once a year,..." So, this one was once enlightened. I don't see this as a believer. It was one-time enlightenment (and it was rejected).
The word 'partakers' does mean "to share in, to partake in". Naturally people do not come to Christ through the work of the flesh. I think we can agree on that. Because then we could be justified by the law or by works. Rather we come to Christ through the inner working of the Holy Spirit. As the gospel is being preached, for example, the Holy Spirit works in the unbeliever to convict of sin, righteousness and the judgment to come.
Hebrews 6:6 "and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."
Just a little more here. That "since" has thrown a lot of people off. From my understanding the text of the translation implies that "since" is part of the text found in the Greek. It isn't. It can be a reasonably drawn conclusion from the context, but it is not the only one.
The Greek Interlinear puts it like this, "and then having fallen away again to restore (them) to repentance crucifying in themselves the Son of God and subjecting (him) to open shame"
I suppose one's translation of this is directly related to the interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-5.
Any thoughts on this?
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JB
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Post by JB on May 19, 2018 20:30:52 GMT -6
Jb, I partly understand where you are coming from. But, I do not see in the NT that when we receive Christ, that we are actually receiving grace instead. We receive grace from God because we receive Christ but not in place of salvation. Romans 10:13 "for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Now back to Hebrews 6. The Greek word translated 'taste' is geuomai. However I do not believe that is the exact word here. The word in Hebrews 6:4 is geusamenous (γευσαμένους). It is translated, "have tasted" and means something like, "to feel, to make trial of, to experience". I found it is used twice in the scriptures, once in Hebrews 6:4 and again in Hebrews 6:5. A Christian is not making trial of the heavenly gift or the word of God. That is something the unbeliever does when he hears the Word or sees God working through Christians.
In Hebrews 6:4 it says, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit," The word 'enlightened' comes from the word phōtisthentas (φωτισθέντας) meaning "to bring to light, to make evident". The word preceding it is 'once' and is used a number of times. 2 Corinthians 11:25 "...once I was stoned," Hebrews 9:7 "...the high priest enters once a year,..." So, this one was once enlightened. I don't see this as a believer. It was one-time enlightenment (and it was rejected).
The word 'partakers' does mean "to share in, to partake in". Naturally people do not come to Christ through the work of the flesh. I think we can agree on that. Because then we could be justified by the law or by works. Rather we come to Christ through the inner working of the Holy Spirit. As the gospel is being preached, for example, the Holy Spirit works in the unbeliever to convict of sin, righteousness and the judgment to come.
Hebrews 6:6 "and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."
Just a little more here. That "since" has thrown a lot of people off. From my understanding the text of the translation implies that "since" is part of the text found in the Greek. It isn't. It can be a reasonably drawn conclusion from the context, but it is not the only one.
The Greek Interlinear puts it like this, "and then having fallen away again to restore (them) to repentance crucifying in themselves the Son of God and subjecting (him) to open shame"
I suppose one's translation of this is directly related to the interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-5.
Any thoughts on this?
Hi Eric.
I'm happy to dig into the tenses of the Greek verbs if needed. Most readers on TruthSeekers won't have the background to read and decipher these verb parsings, and it won't interest them. I still tend to think in many cases it's important to review the original languages.
In Hebrews 6:4 you are correct that the specific word is γευσαμένους. But that is simply a form / tense of the word I offered. I was just giving the root form.
The word you provided from the text, γευσαμένους is simply the aorist participle middle form of γεύομαι, which I provided. The root is the same - it is still γεύομαι (geuomai). The specific form of the verb is Aorist Participle Middle, which simply makes it translate as "having tasted." It would be like saying in English, "having tasted the wine with agreeable results, he poured a full glass." The action (tasting) has already been completed and it is connected to what follows (pouring a glass).
In English we add a word ("having") to show that the subject has already completed an action that is connected to what follows.
In Greek they just indicate it by modifying the root word. So in Greek geuomai (tasted) becomes geusamenous (having tasted).
I'm not sure we need to go to the Greek very much here, though.
What the Hebrews writer tells us about these people is that they:- were enlightened (6:4)
- were made partakers of the Holy Ghost (6:4)
- have tasted the heavenly gift (6:4)
- have tasted the good word of God" (6:5)
- have tasted the powers of the world to come" (6:5)
The tense of the first two phrases in the above list are Aorist passive. They are not active or middle tense verbs like the rest of the verbs in these verses.
In plain English, this means that first two actions in my list above were done to them. Someone or something outside of them was involved.
In this case: - The Holy Spirit enlightened them
- The Holy Spirit made them partakers of the Holy Spirit
The last 3 things they did themselves: - They have tasted the heavenly gift
[What is this heavenly gift? I think it is grace]. - They have tasted the good word of God
- They have tasted the powers of the world to come.
I cannot reconcile this degree of spiritual progression with anything but one of two things: They either accepted God's grace, or they were saved. Since I believe salvation is a process that is not completed until we die, I have to conclude that these people accepted the gift of God, which is grace.
But then they turned their backs on it. They returned to self-righteousness, which means returning to the condemnation of the law, which is falling from grace (Galatians 5:3-4)
You also wrote "I do not see in the NT that when we receive Christ, that we are actually receiving grace instead." I wouldn't say "instead." Accepting Christ is accepting grace. He came for the express purpose of fulfilling the Law and for us and then taking the Law's penalty as if He were guilty so that the Law no longer has any hold on us and we are utterly under grace.
This is why I say accepting Christ is the same thing as accepting Grace, and why I believe Grace is the heavenly gift mentioned in Hebrews 6:4.
I'd be happy to discuss this more if you want to. I consider it to be a very important principle for use to understand if we are to fully appreciate what God has done since Genesis 3.
jb |
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elacey
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Post by elacey on May 20, 2018 10:41:09 GMT -6
I think its possible to lose one's salvation. When I look at John 15 it seems to me Jesus tells us all we really need to know (no need to be an expert in old language) --- “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. This is my command: Love each other. John 15:1-17 NIV bible.com/bible/111/jhn.15.1-17.NIVOn a personal level I am fighting to stay in Him. I am still battling ego and bitterness from within. For many years I am forced to pay over $2,000 monthly after taxes are considered for "child support" to a horrible woman who not only wronged me.. But also works part time, travels, lives in a $400,000 house and drives a $45,000 car while I work like a dog... 9 months out of year 7 days a week and most holidays. The burden often seems too much. I try to see how this is good for me in the long run but its difficult at times. It feels possible to lose one's salvation in bitterness. God help me. |
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JB
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Post by JB on May 21, 2018 16:38:15 GMT -6
I think its possible to lose one's salvation. When I look at John 15 it seems to me Jesus tells us all we really need to know (no need to be an expert in old language) --- “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. This is my command: Love each other. John 15:1-17 NIV bible.com/bible/111/jhn.15.1-17.NIVOn a personal level I am fighting to stay in Him. I am still battling ego and bitterness from within. For many years I am forced to pay over $2,000 monthly after taxes are considered for "child support" to a horrible woman who not only wronged me.. But also works part time, travels, lives in a $400,000 house and drives a $45,000 car while I work like a dog... 9 months out of year 7 days a week and most holidays. The burden often seems too much. I try to see how this is good for me in the long run but its difficult at times. It feels possible to lose one's salvation in bitterness. God help me. Eric, You are not saved. You are being saved, and that is through your acceptance of His grace to get you there in the end. You cannot and have not out-sinned His grace. Not even with your bitterness. However, you do risk abandoning His grace and foregoing in the end the very salvation you desire. Whether you conclude that you are good enough to be saved or that you are too bad to be saved, you have elevated law above grace, subjected yourself to legal righteousness or condemnation. In that condition you are under law cannot be saved in the end. In that condition you will have fallen from grace. "Do not be deceived by these wiles of the devil. Instead, do these things:
- "Build up your strength in union with the Lord and by means of his mighty power.
- Put on all the armor that God gives you, so that you will be able to stand up against the Devil's evil tricks
We aren't fighting against human beings [including ourselves] but against the wicked spiritual forces in the heavenly world, the rulers, authorities, and cosmic powers of this dark age." [Ephesians 6:10-11, Good News Translation]
The weapons He gave you to fight with have zero to do with your own sinfulness or righteousness. They are: - Truth
- Righteousness (His righteousness, that is)
- Readiness to announce the good news of peace (which is through grace, and which you can't proclaim if you are focused on your own legal failings)
- Faith
- Salvation
- The Word of God
You must wield those weapons " in prayer, asking for God's help. Pray on every occasion, as the Spirit leads. For this reason keep alert and never give up; pray always" ( Ephesians 6:11-18) Eric, my brother, I've been at the spiritual point where you are. Different circumstances, but the same pending risk of being tricked by my pride into turning my back on grace and being lost in my own unrighteousness. Do not do that. Find some way right now to get out of the enemy's snare. The enemy wants you to trust and condemn yourself so that you abandon grace. Your words in your post come scarily close to that. Grace and peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ. |
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Eric B
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Post by Eric B on May 21, 2018 22:09:34 GMT -6
Eric,
I was going to share a little more about why I believe what I do, but I want to remind you of three passages.
"Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong."
2 Corinthians 12:7-10
One thing about believers in Christ is that we all have trials. Some people seem to have more difficult trials than others. Some have severe trials that I imagine I could not handle myself. But the Lord promises us that His grace is sufficient. It may not seem like it, especially if the trial never seems to end. But He is forming you for His glory. I ask you not to reject His work in your life. Keep pressing on!
Another verse is in 1 Corinthians 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it."
One final verse is in 2 Timothy 3:10-13, "Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived."
Eric, you have a very difficult trial and I will pray for you that God gives you strength and joy in it.
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elacey
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Post by elacey on May 22, 2018 6:25:23 GMT -6
JB and Eric... Thank you both for the words of encouragement. This root of bitterness inside is something I need to do spiritual battle against inside my mind. I have been using the wrong tools altogether and must face this head on. This is Satan tricking me and whispering lies. The Lord my Savior loves me so deeply and there I was on Truthseekers complaining on a Sunday morning when I should be rejoicing. Eric the verse in 2nd Corinthians has been a steady go to however I lost sight and appreciate you bringing me back. Thank you brother. His grace is sufficient... JB... so true that I must do battle in prayer. This has been something honestly I've never been good at. Going to make an effort. Thank you so much JB Not saved... but rather being saved. Going to continue to focus on "throwing off" the root of bitterness which has "entangled me" for the last 10 years. -- Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.” Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? Hebrews 12:1-7 NIV bible.com/bible/111/heb.12.1-7.NIV |
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Post by For His Service on Feb 8, 2019 14:05:43 GMT -6
hello everyone. while I can go into great detail on this i'm not going there in this short post but rather will give you the truth. The Bible makes it very simple. You absolutely cannot every lose your salvation. JB is correct to a point but i disagree with most of his comment on this subject. This is nothing new since JB and I discussed this very subject a few years back. Such disagreements among theologians is common. In fact some disagreements among The Brethren on theological issues have been going on for centuries. This is one of those. There are times when we must agree to disagree. This by no means indicates a lack of commitment to God's work. Yes we are saved; we are being saved and we will be saved. Simply put this is a ministry of the Holy Spirit. While Jesus' work on the cross has saved us, the Holy Spirit provides the spiritual food to sustain that saving work. We receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion which is the beginning of our transformation into the likeness of Christ. A couple critical points are important to understand. First non of us knows for certain who is and isn't saved. If Kg. David, a man after God's own heart can be deceived into taking a census., certainly we are also susceptible to deception. The best we can do is to stay in His Word, prayer and look for the fruit (a judgment call). We are known as Jesus' disciples by the fruit we produce. Using this method prescribed by Scripture in prayer we can usually make a good call albeit not a perfect call. I am of the school that says you are saved even now in the present. I disagree with JB that we are not saved yet (that total salvation is not yet at hand). If we are not saved yet, what hope do we have? I would argue with the question "what else is needed". Such a question implies that Jesus' work on the cross was insufficient. While we can reject grace such action would be a result of someone that has not been saved. I argue that a truly saved heart cannot reject grace although they can make errors and at time very serious errors. Nevertheless the Holy Spirit's power is more than sufficient to bring a "saved" person to the throne of grace in repentance. If we argue that this is not possible then i would argue that the Holy Spirit is not in that person and if that's the case then that person is not Christ's. (furthermore let's remember that John's direction indicating that when we sin the remedy is repentance. Remember that this repentance is to restore our relationship to God in right standing. It is not to take away any sin we may have committed since that has already been done at the cross.) If a person that is truly saved by Christ's finished work at the cross (this would indicate that salvation is a finished work in that work at the cross even if the process is not yet complete; i.e. progressive sanctification.) then Christ will never loose that person, furthermore; no one, even said individual, can snatch them out of The Father's hand. Without the conviction of knowing that you are truly saved (complete salvation even though progressive sanctification is not yet completed) even now in the present a person will not be able to deal with life effectively here and now. If you don't believe that you are absolutely and completely saved at this very moment; how will you deal with this life and all the challenging and heart crushing circumstances that this life throws at us? We come closer to the Lord in all circumstances by knowing that we are completely saved even now by Jesus' finished work at the cross. Without knowing this we would be uncertain in our present lives. Scripture is also given to us so that we may know that we are saved (or not). In fact, are we not called to check ourselves to make sure we are in the faith and if we are in the faith then we are saved even in this present time. I urge all not to believe anything I say but rather do as the Buriens and go to the Scriptures and check to see of it is so. Blessings to all.  |
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JB
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Dedicated TruthSeeker
Posts: 308
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Post by JB on Feb 8, 2019 16:17:55 GMT -6
hello everyone. while I can go into great detail on this i'm not going there in this short post but rather will give you the truth. The Bible makes it very simple. You absolutely cannot every lose your salvation. JB is correct to a point but i disagree with most of his comment on this subject. This is nothing new since JB and I discussed this very subject a few years back. Such disagreements among theologians is common. In fact some disagreements among The Brethren on theological issues have been going on for centuries. This is one of those. There are times when we must agree to disagree. This by no means indicates a lack of commitment to God's work... First, may I say MAN is it great to hear from you and study with you again! Because you are using a pseudonym rather than a name, I won't spell out your name here but for the benefit of the old timers I hope you don't mind me say... hey guys, the post I'm responding to was from M.G. As you said, my brother, you and I have studied this topic together extensively and though we differ, we respect each other's sincerity ad love for our Lord and His truth as revealed in scripture. No need for me to interact at length with what you wrote. I'll say just two small things: - My position partly depends upon understanding "saved" as completely transformed, which I think we'd agree will not be until the end.
- You wrote "Without the conviction of knowing that you are truly saved (complete salvation even though progressive sanctification is not yet completed) even now in the present a person will not be able to deal with life effectively here and now. If you don't believe that you are absolutely and completely saved at this very moment; how will you deal with this life and all the challenging and heart crushing circumstances that this life throws at us?"
- I am there right now. From a human perspective my wife and I are currently at the most difficult time in our lives due to circumstances with a recently former employer and a number of expensive health issues she is dealing with. If I didn't believe God was with me, growing me, testing me, saving me, and loving me through this, I would have already crumbled. But I know that He loves me and that He will not let me go.
I love you Bro. jb |
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Post by For His Service on Feb 9, 2019 8:31:38 GMT -6
Amen to you my Brother. I likewise have come to the conclusion some time ago (because i tend to be stiff necked at times) that i can do nothing of any good without the council and help of the Lord. God uses trials to draw us closer to Him and to help us recognize that we need His help. I have yet to meet anyone that does not need help either externally or internally. None of us is immune from needing help.
To all of you my Brothers and Sisters; May the Lord grant you peace in the middle of the storms of life that only He can provide. Let us all endeavor not to be like the Apostle Peter, who was distracted by the storm and began to drown (written for our edification) but rather let us keep our eyes on Jesus even through the most vicious of life's storms; lest we be distracted by them and thrown off our path by the evil one who strongly desires that we focus on the storm to rob us of the good life that comes from above.
God Bless you all this and every day.
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