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Post by Admin on Feb 16, 2019 21:58:34 GMT -6
Study Begins: February 16, 2019 Discussion Begins: February 23, 2019
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1 And as they were speaking to the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them, 2 greatly annoyed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3 And they arrested them and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening. 4 But many of those who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men came to about five thousand. 5 On the next day their rulers and elders and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem, 6 with Annas the high priest and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of the high-priestly family. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, “By what power or by what name did you do this?” 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders, 9 if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what means this man has been healed, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well. 11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus. 14 But seeing the man who was healed standing beside them, they had nothing to say in opposition. 15 But when they had commanded them to leave the council, they conferred with one another, 16 saying, “What shall we do with these men? For that a notable sign has been performed through them is evident to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17 But in order that it may spread no further among the people, let us warn them to speak no more to anyone in this name.” 18 So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, 20 for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard.” 21 And when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way to punish them, because of the people, for all were praising God for what had happened. 22 For the man on whom this sign of healing was performed was more than forty years old. 23 When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit, “‘Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain? 26 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed’— 27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. 29 And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30 while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness. 32 Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. 33 And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. 34 There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold 35 and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. 36 Thus Joseph, who was also called by the apostles Barnabas (which means son of encouragement), a Levite, a native of Cyprus, 37 sold a field that belonged to him and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet. English Standard Version (ESV)
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Post by For His Service on Feb 17, 2019 10:54:49 GMT -6
Chapters 4-7 records a series of confrontations with each one building up the death of Stephen (Chapt 7) and all the persecution that follows which resulted in the Gospel (and the Church) being spread beyond Jerusalem. Note that the first four verses of chapter four are a conclusion to the incident recorded in Chapter three and work as an introduction to what follows. (“Now as they spoke to the people…(NKJV)) Luke was an amazing writer. These opening words show that while the Apostle Peter was the main speaker, indicate the Apostle John also spoke at this gathering. Here is a brief summary of this chapter. The rulers of the Jews were deeply offended by the Apostle Peter’s sermon and laid hands on them and imprisoned them as it was evening already. This was the sermon the Apostle preached in 3:1-16. The next day all the rulers were gathered and questioned the Apostle Peter and the Apostle John as to what power or name this healing was done. The Apostle Peter, full of the Holy Spirit, speaks boldly and tells them that not only was the healing done by the name of Jesus Christ but furthermore that there is no other name under Heaven that man needs to know to be saved. When the rulers saw the boldness of the Apostle and discerned that both Apostles Peter and John were un-educated they marveled and took note that they had been with Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, the rulers warned both Apostles not to teach or preach in the name of Jesus henceforth. The Apostle Peter answers and tells them that they are to judge which is better, to listen to them or to God because they could only speak to what they were witness, namely they were witnesses to Jesus Christ. Upon leaving the Temple both Apostles go to their brethren and tell them all that had transpired. Whereupon all the brethren with the Apostles come to the Lord in prayer seeking boldness to preach Jesus Christ in the face of objections and threatening. Upon completion of their prayers the Lord responds by “shaking “the place where they prayed and confirming the Church with the gift of the Holy Spirit, mutual love and charity. The chapter closes with the introduction of Barnabas (Joses,-Son of consolation, and a Levite). Here is a little better breakdown: A few things are immediately apparent. “Three separate though related (5:17) individuals and groups objected to the Apostles Peter and John addressing the people as they did. Jesus had also encountered opposition from leaders who questioned His authority when He taught in the temple (Mark 11:27-28; Luke 20:1-2). The captain (Gr. strategos) of the temple guard, the commanding officer of the temple police force, apparently feared that this already excited throng of hearers might get out of control. The Sadducees were Levitical priests who claimed to represent ancient orthodoxy. They opposed any developments in biblical law, and they denied the doctrine of bodily resurrection (23:8) and so disagreed with the Apostle Peter's teaching on that subject (John 12:10). They believed that the messianic age had begun with the Maccabean heroes (168-134 B.C.) and continued under the Sadducees' supervision, so they rejected the Apostle Peter's identification of Jesus as the Messiah.” (Constable) The Sanhedrin did not doubt that a healing had occurred; they only demanded to know by what authority (power or name, 4:7) the apostles were preaching and healing. Peter responded that his authority came from Jesus. The Apostle claimed that they (the people and their rulers) crucified Him and that He was raised from the dead by God. That Jesus is the stone which has become the head of the corner. This is in ref to Ps 118:22. So far, at this point both Apostles had done nothing wrong and the Sanhedrin couldn’t deny the miracle, so at this point they could only issue a command and a warning (4:13-18). The Apostle Peter responded (4:19-20) that they (the rulers) should judge whether it was prudent to listen to God or to men, because the Apostles could not help but speak the things for which they were witnesses. Thus, we see here the principles for Christian behavior before authorities by the Apostles (4:5-13, 18-20) (See also 5:29-32.) We are not to be concerned for what we will say since the Holy Spirit will guide us in what to say. To always speak the truth in Jesus Christ. To be bold in speaking the truth, without fear. To speak to the things for which we are witness and the things which have been taught us by the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. To always obey God in all things. Finally, to be obedient and faithful relying on the Lord to bring us through all things in His name and to His glory. Notice the response to the Sanhedrin’s threats (4:23:31) They shared the events with other believers and then in one accord went to the Lord in prayer asking for assistance that God may be glorified and that they would produce much good fruit the Lord. Of particular note is that they knew God’s word and used it in their prayers. These brethren confess many things about God. (4:24-30) That God made the heavens and the earth and all things in them. Who by David let it be known that opposition would come to Jesus Christ. This would be organized opposition and this prophecy was fulfilled by Herod, Pilate, Gentiles, and the people of Israel. But, all came about as was for-ordained by God. That God’s word is true for Jesus had said to them that they could ask anything in His name and He would do it, Vs. 29-30. They specifically ask God (4:29-30) for courage to speak God’s Word and that by wonders and signs in the name of Jesus be done. Notice also the attitudes, priorities, and feelings in their prayer (4:24-30). An attitude of total dependence upon God, for in John 15 Jesus had told them that without Him they could do nothing. The priority was to grant them the ability and will to preach in the name of Jesus as they were commanded. They show a feeling of worthiness that they had been chosen for this task. The Chapter closes with a short discourse recording the unity of the Church at that time. Particularly the selling (personal possession) and sharing of all things within the Church along with verbal witnessing and confirmation by God through "signs and wonders". This resulted in a sense of responsibility for other believer's welfare and brought the Church body even closer together. It was love for one another and not law that was the motivator here. Center to most witness was the resurrection of Jesus Christ. God's grace was center stage here.
A short note here; some scholars and historians believe voluntary sharing noted here was somewhat customary. The selling of possessions to give to the Church was not and was in this context considered exceptional. The Apostles were in charge of distribution of resources as well as witnessing. Everyone else also participated in this witness by their words and actions.
Blessing to all of you my fellow brethren. May the God of all the earth carry you through everyday.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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elacey
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Post by elacey on Feb 23, 2019 16:48:09 GMT -6
The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes. The Lord has done it this very day; let us rejoice today and be glad. Psalm 118:22-24 NIV bible.com/bible/111/psa.118.22-24.NIV
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JB
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Post by JB on Feb 24, 2019 6:09:33 GMT -6
1 And as they were speaking to the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them, 2 greatly annoyed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
Peter had just finished telling his Jewish audience, on this holy day of sacrifice, that the murdered the Messiah for whom they and their forefathers had waited for many generations, that God knew they murdered Him in ignorance, that in so doing they fulfilled prophecy, that this murdered Messiah was now alive again, and that God would forgive them if they would repent. The air was thick and hearts were heavy. While they were internalizing this invitation to salvation, the temple officials came to arrest the disciples. Why? Note that our writer Luke is careful to include in v.1 that the Sadducees were with them. Sadducees were at that time the ruling party of the Jews. They denounced resurrection, but Peter was not only preaching that resurrection was true, but that the Messiah Himself had been resurrected (v.2). 3 And they arrested them and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening. 4 But many of those who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men came to about five thousand.
Man cannot thwart the plans of God. Earlier, as detailed in Acts 2:41, 3000 souls were saved through faith and repentance. But by the end of that day, the church grew to now consisted of 5000 men (Acts 3:5). I emphasized the word “men” because this did not included women and children. Acts 2:41 had said 3000 “souls,” which was the standard way of denoting people of all types. But here we are told the church grew to 5000 men. It’s reasonable to assume that with women and children, the church grew from 11 apostles to 8,000 to 10,000. A mega-mega church was formed in a single day! According to Wikipedia, the Hartford Institute defines a megachurch as having at least 2000 active members [see Megachurch on Wikipedia here]. Question: Why doesn’t that happen anymore? I’d be interested in your thoughts. 5 On the next day their rulers and elders and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem, 6 with Annas the high priest and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of the high-priestly family. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, “By what power or by what name did you do this?”
Peter was hoping they’d ask! He had no reason to be concerned that he, a plain speaking fisherman, wouldn’t have the right things to say to these highly educated men because Jesus Himself promised “And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say” (Luke 12:11-12). Watch now what the Holy Spirit taught Peter to say: 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders, 9 if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what means this man has been healed, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well. 11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Follow the logic: “You are angry with me for what, exactly? Is it for doing a good deed? Is it for giving a normal life to a man who had no other future but to sit on his mat and beg day after day? Let me tell you, I did not do it. The One who did I is the One you murdered – Jesus of Nazareth, whom you murdered. He didn’t stay dead. He is alive now, thank God, and He healed this crippled man.” What could they say? There was no denying the healing. And there was no way this simple fisherman from Bethsaida healed him. Peter then took them back to the scriptures they taught from (Psalm 118:21-23) to help them see that they were part of the prophecy they taught about: “I thank you that you have answered me and have become my salvation. The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is the Lord's doing; it is marvelous in our eyes.” Peter said, “You are those builders, Jesus the Messiah is the stone, and you rejected Him.” If you want to be saved, there is no other way… Turn your rejecting Him into accepting Him.” 13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus. 14 But seeing the man who was healed standing beside them, they had nothing to say in opposition.
The men find themselves in a spot that, like many people, I found myself in many times before accepting Christ as Savior. The Father had shown Himself to me many times both through His disciples’ teaching and by showing Himself undeniably in my life’s circumstances. But I wouldn’t let go. Who he was was undeniable, but I outstubborned His calling. These temple rulers were in that spot too… I’d say in perhaps even more compelling circumstances that I ever experienced… I was not a Bible scholar as they were and I did not witness a miracle as they did. 15 But when they had commanded them to leave the council, they conferred with one another, 16 saying, “What shall we do with these men? For that a notable sign has been performed through them is evident to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17 But in order that it may spread no further among the people, let us warn them to speak no more to anyone in this name.”
The Bible often gives us insight into ourselves through the lives of others. Do you see in these verses that the men openly admitted that evidence for the truth of what Peter was teaching was compelling, and their immediate response to that was to plan how to redirect peoples’ attention rather than to submit to the truth that was so obvious in front of them? 18 So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, 20 for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard.”
There are many ways to approach those verses, but Peter is simply saying what these leaders already knew: When you see God work, silence toward others about it is sinful (Psalm 40:9-10). It would be unreasonable to expect Peter to remain silent after encountering the bold work of the Lord. 21 And when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way to punish them, because of the people, for all were praising God for what had happened. 22 For the man on whom this sign of healing was performed was more than forty years old. 23 When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit, “‘Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain? 26 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed’— 27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
Note how often God uses the “man’s fear of man” to accomplish His purposes. Here are a few examples from elsewhere in the Bible: - Matthew 21:26
“But if we say, ‘From man,’ we are afraid of the crowd, for they all hold that John was a prophet.” - Luke 20:6
“But if we say, ‘From man,’ all the people will stone us to death, for they are convinced that John was a prophet.” - Luke 20:19
“The scribes and the chief priests sought to lay hands on him at that very hour, for they perceived that he had told this parable against them, but they feared the people. - Luke 22:2
“And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to put him to death, for they feared the people.” - Acts 5:26
“Then the captain with the officers went and brought them, but not by force, for they were afraid of being stoned by the people”
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30 while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.
The prayer of v.29 must be our prayer for ourselves and for the church today. The modern American church is largely impotent, and for that the world eternally suffers in hell’s fire and dies in its sins. The truth that the modern church fears men more than God shows itself in entertaining sermons that are swallowed and digested quickly, leaving no permanent sense of nourishment or fullness. It shows in the tiny portions of our time and possessions that we utilize for the building up of the kingdom rather than satisfying our own excesses. 32 Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. 33 And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. 34 There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold 35 and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. 36 Thus Joseph, who was also called by the apostles Barnabas (which means son of encouragement), a Levite, a native of Cyprus, 37 sold a field that belonged to him and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.
A long time ago I was at a very difficult place and brought my dire situation to the attention of my pastor. He called a meeting with the church’s “benevolence ministry.” The head of the benevolence ministry came to meet me at my home one evening. He questioned me very thoroughly about what had caused me to be in that stage of neediness: Was I irresponsible with money? Did I know how to create and live on a budget? He reviewed all of my cancelled checks for the previous year to make sure I wasn’t wasteful and then took his findings back to a committee of people from the church. That committee then offered my $700 because that was the maximum the IRS or some other regulator allowed “the church” to give without some sort of penalty (I’m no longer clear on the details). There are all kinds of problems with that situation – that “the church” was identified as some institution that had a building with offices; that the government controlled “the church’s” ministry; that the only funds available were what sat in “the church’s” bank account; etc.
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John R
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Post by John R on Feb 25, 2019 6:23:04 GMT -6
JB and family in Christ,
First of all again, please forgive me for not posting my thoughts on the scripture. I have no excuse but the "busy-ness" of life. However in the quiet of this morning I have taken the time to read and digest your wonderful comments. I thank God for your hearts and your faithfulness.
I am struck as you point out JB of the similarities of the ruling religious class to the modern day church both their fear of people over God and their keeping of the power within families. The Levites of then are mirrored by today's Osteen, Stanley, Young, Jakes, Hagee, and even in Charleston the Surratt's (www.seacoast.org/about/our-story/). I am not implying that any of these ministries are unethical or unbiblical, I cannot say with certainty but I can say that each is family centric in there governance and each has significant influence in their communities and some even worldwide ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians_United_for_Israel).
To your question JB, "Why don't the miracles of the early church happen today?" I believe the answer is simple; Peter and John feared God and truly loved and worshipped Him. Our modern church fears man, fears the government, and worships idols (their megachurch millions, the "worship" leader/band, etc). If our mega churches can raise millions for the Zionists, why can't they end abortion? If the super-pastors can influence political elections, why don't they put an end to human trafficking and pornography? I guess the destruction of souls is good for business or maybe they are deep into what is all around us? (Google "mega church pastor steps down" and you can read for a long time.)
Brothers and sisters, this is very sad, and it grieves my soul. The Church at Laodicea (Revelation Chapter 3) is a prophetic picture of where we are in 2018 as is the state of many hearts described in Ezekiel's prophetic book. In most modern churches, God is not honored in the hearts of the people and there is no repentance. Sin continues and divine miracles cannot happen in an environment void of the Holy Spirit and faith. Jesus (Himself) could not perform many miracles because of this (Matthew 13:58; Mark 6:5). The remnant, coming out of these institutions, will be what sustains the Body into the future and I believe what is described in the last days prophecy of the Messiah's return.
I am stirred these days to form small groups of like believers and be bold for Christ to speak out against the sin of our world. I believe the Lord is calling us out to be a voice in the wilderness. Come alongside a young man struggling with drugs and alcohol, confront your local government to shut down the abortion clinic in your hometown, and go to the hospital and extend a helping hand to your neighbor who is ill. We are the remnant and with one heart in Christ the miracles will begin again. Suggest this article (coachdavelive.com/articles/this-is-it-lets-end-abortion-2)
Blessings John
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JB
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Post by JB on Feb 25, 2019 10:29:28 GMT -6
The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes. The Lord has done it this very day; let us rejoice today and be glad. Psalm 118:22-24 NIV bible.com/bible/111/psa.118.22-24.NIVMy whole life I have been an outcast in most of society. It plagued me through my childhood, Junior High, and High School years, and I wrongly focused constant effort to fit into a group - who were themselves social outcasts. That led me into a very sinful lifestyle, ultimately resulted in my incarceration where God got my attention through a prison minister. It was while there, as I read my Bible, that I first realized that Jesus was an outcast and that his people most often were too. I found comfort in that at the time.
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JB
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Post by JB on Feb 25, 2019 10:45:07 GMT -6
JB and family in Christ,
First of all again, please forgive me for not posting my thoughts on the scripture. I have no excuse but the "busy-ness" of life. However in the quiet of this morning I have taken the time to read and digest your wonderful comments. I thank God for your hearts and your faithfulness.
I am struck as you point out JB of the similarities of the ruling religious class to the modern day church both their fear of people over God and their keeping of the power within families. The Levites of then are mirrored by today's Osteen, Stanley, Young, Jakes, Hagee, and even in Charleston the Surratt's (www.seacoast.org/about/our-story/). I am not implying that any of these ministries are unethical or unbiblical, I cannot say with certainty but I can say that each is family centric in there governance and each has significant influence in their communities and some even worldwide ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians_United_for_Israel).
To your question JB, "Why don't the miracles of the early church happen today?" I believe the answer is simple; Peter and John feared God and truly loved and worshipped Him. Our modern church fears man, fears the government, and worships idols (their megachurch millions, the "worship" leader/band, etc). If our mega churches can raise millions for the Zionists, why can't they end abortion? If the super-pastors can influence political elections, why don't they put an end to human trafficking and pornography? I guess the destruction of souls is good for business or maybe they are deep into what is all around us? (Google "mega church pastor steps down" and you can read for a long time.)
Brothers and sisters, this is very sad, and it grieves my soul. The Church at Laodicea (Revelation Chapter 3) is a prophetic picture of where we are in 2018 as is the state of many hearts described in Ezekiel's prophetic book. In most modern churches, God is not honored in the hearts of the people and there is no repentance. Sin continues and divine miracles cannot happen in an environment void of the Holy Spirit and faith. Jesus (Himself) could not perform many miracles because of this (Matthew 13:58; Mark 6:5). The remnant, coming out of these institutions, will be what sustains the Body into the future and I believe what is described in the last days prophecy of the Messiah's return.
I am stirred these days to form small groups of like believers and be bold for Christ to speak out against the sin of our world. I believe the Lord is calling us out to be a voice in the wilderness. Come alongside a young man struggling with drugs and alcohol, confront your local government to shut down the abortion clinic in your hometown, and go to the hospital and extend a helping hand to your neighbor who is ill. We are the remnant and with one heart in Christ the miracles will begin again. Suggest this article (coachdavelive.com/articles/this-is-it-lets-end-abortion-2)
Blessings
John John, every single line you wrote above is spot-on and important for the modern church to internalize. We see very little written in the NT about believers congregating in a building to worship. Don't misunderstand... this does appear in the famous Hebrews 10:25 and at the opening of nearly all of Paul's writings. But modern Christians have been deceived into thinking that the meeting location (house, "church building," or whatever) is the central headquarters of Christian Life. That building is where they go to learn (not much personal Bible study), to carry out ministries (very few examples of going out into society to in-person feed the poor, visit the prisons, minister to the sick, etc.), to fellowship (very little time spent together between Sundays,), etc. I feel certain that those are in no way like the church Jesus wanted to establish.
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Eric B
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Post by Eric B on Feb 26, 2019 0:06:26 GMT -6
JB,
Reading this reminded me another passage that Luke wrote in Luke 13:23-24 "And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."
and also, Luke 13:26-28 "Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’ “In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out."
I fear for the 'church' that those who go there are in for a big surprise in a bad way. I have found very few churches care anymore what goes on outside their walls.
My wife and I actually found a church recently that goes out to the poor, the outcasts, the sick and cannot do more for lack of people; who try to follow the examples of the early church on a consistent basis. This is very rare.
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JB
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Post by JB on Feb 26, 2019 6:33:58 GMT -6
Eric, I'm very happy you have found a church that is being the church to the world. That is very difficult to find. That is the sort of church where a believer is likely to genuinely grow to be more like Christ, whose life on earth was entirely focused on the non-religious-establishment.
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elacey
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Post by elacey on Feb 26, 2019 9:12:26 GMT -6
JB and family in Christ,
First of all again, please forgive me for not posting my thoughts on the scripture. I have no excuse but the "busy-ness" of life. However in the quiet of this morning I have taken the time to read and digest your wonderful comments. I thank God for your hearts and your faithfulness.
I am struck as you point out JB of the similarities of the ruling religious class to the modern day church both their fear of people over God and their keeping of the power within families. The Levites of then are mirrored by today's Osteen, Stanley, Young, Jakes, Hagee, and even in Charleston the Surratt's (www.seacoast.org/about/our-story/). I am not implying that any of these ministries are unethical or unbiblical, I cannot say with certainty but I can say that each is family centric in there governance and each has significant influence in their communities and some even worldwide ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians_United_for_Israel).
To your question JB, "Why don't the miracles of the early church happen today?" I believe the answer is simple; Peter and John feared God and truly loved and worshipped Him. Our modern church fears man, fears the government, and worships idols (their megachurch millions, the "worship" leader/band, etc). If our mega churches can raise millions for the Zionists, why can't they end abortion? If the super-pastors can influence political elections, why don't they put an end to human trafficking and pornography? I guess the destruction of souls is good for business or maybe they are deep into what is all around us? (Google "mega church pastor steps down" and you can read for a long time.)
Brothers and sisters, this is very sad, and it grieves my soul. The Church at Laodicea (Revelation Chapter 3) is a prophetic picture of where we are in 2018 as is the state of many hearts described in Ezekiel's prophetic book. In most modern churches, God is not honored in the hearts of the people and there is no repentance. Sin continues and divine miracles cannot happen in an environment void of the Holy Spirit and faith. Jesus (Himself) could not perform many miracles because of this (Matthew 13:58; Mark 6:5). The remnant, coming out of these institutions, will be what sustains the Body into the future and I believe what is described in the last days prophecy of the Messiah's return.
I am stirred these days to form small groups of like believers and be bold for Christ to speak out against the sin of our world. I believe the Lord is calling us out to be a voice in the wilderness. Come alongside a young man struggling with drugs and alcohol, confront your local government to shut down the abortion clinic in your hometown, and go to the hospital and extend a helping hand to your neighbor who is ill. We are the remnant and with one heart in Christ the miracles will begin again. Suggest this article (coachdavelive.com/articles/this-is-it-lets-end-abortion-2)
Blessings John xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
John,
It is not the churches charge, circle of influence or responsibility to "end abortion, stop human trafficking, or end pornography". The charge of the church is simply to spread the good news. No church is perfect... but I am optimistic that even the church in general is winning souls over and trying it's best to fear God and love God.
Please consider this passage which I have tried to point to many many times over the years.
Matthew 13:24-30 New International Version (NIV) The Parable of the Weeds 24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. 27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
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elacey
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Post by elacey on Feb 26, 2019 11:16:59 GMT -6
@ john R You suggested reading an article. An excerpt from that article... This is it, folks. NOW is the time to go on the offense. God has given the American Church a brief window of time to rise up and put an end to baby murder. President Trump has proven himself to be the most vocal pro-life President in American history. “Ripping babies out of the womb” is not OK with him. He stands exposed for the entire world to see; waiting for an “AMEN” from the American Christian Church.
Ending abortion is not the job of the President. It is time we stopped waiting on him to do what Jesus mandated to His Church. Abortion will end when Christians say it will end. It is time for Christians to step up to the plate. We have been given a brief window of opportunity to be obedient to the Lord’s mandate. The American Church is being weighed in a balance. Will we answer the call? Will we move into the gap? Will we walk through the breach that the enemy has exposed? The Supreme Court cannot make law. That pretended legislation is being exposed. The abortion battle is moving to the States. Let’s not miss this moment. THIS IS IT! It is time to end abortion. We can do it one State at a time. -------------- Are you suggesting that it is my duty as a believer to rally against, protest, or take political action to end abortion?
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JB
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Post by JB on Feb 26, 2019 12:21:07 GMT -6
Very interesting! @ john R You suggested reading an article. An excerpt from that article... Are you suggesting that it is my duty as a believer to rally against, protest, or take political action to end abortion? So I'd like to suggest that our comments and discussions might revolve much around how to shape the world around us biblically. Acts is full of examples of this, good and sometimes bad. I think we all agree (correct e if I'm wrong) that sin is rampant, that our war is against spiritual forces rather than against humans, and that Christians are called to be world changers. So hopefully we'll bring out in future studies through Acts how, by the early church's examples, to be world changers in the right way.
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elacey
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Post by elacey on Feb 26, 2019 22:42:21 GMT -6
May I suggest that Matthew 13:24-30 teaches us not to worry about changing the world. (For instance... the call to end abortion in the USA)
In fact... the parable includes a warning that in doing so (attempting to pull the weeds) we can do more harm than good.
The message is directly from Jesus in red letters.
I accept many things in the world as "outside my circle of influence".
Homosexuality is a good example. If I go and tell people that this is against our nature... and a sin... I might turn someone against God unknowingly. Maybe a person I don't even know is feeling this is their inner nature.
Many other examples ...
So what is in my circle of influence.
1. How I live my life.
Lots of work to do there... probably priority 1... clean my house.
2. How I raise my two boys... 13 and 14 years old
Can't think of much more important than that
3. How I treat people around me. Friends, family. Neighbors, coworkers
I was at an old friend's 50th birthday party. Saw his son 23 had not seen him for years. He told me he is struggling. Heroin addiction... spent 2.5 years in prison. I could sense pain and anguish.
I talked to him... gave encouragement... shared some personal testimony and later via Facebook reached out and offered to take him to a Saturday morning mens bible study.
If I'm honest about reality.
I can't fix the world (sin, pornography, hate, war, abuse, etc)
In fact... its not even my job. Its God's job. He may be just letting the weeds grow with the wheat.
What I can do.... what is my job is to study His word, try to consciously live in God's kingdom here on earth (spiritual consciousness of the Holy Spirit)... let the Holy Spirit continue to work within me.
Then share the good news with those around me and be there for anyone I can be a friend to... a God fearing friend.
My best friend from college is about to ruin his marriage of 27 years. Every day I try a new angle, approach to get him to open his heart to Jesus. He is stubbornly relying on his own power. ...this is usually the weakness for very strong willed and overly talented people. He just doesn't see it. I don't stop praying for him and I'll always be there even when his world crashes down on him.
I think we all have our hands full of very important things we can work on within ourselves and sharing the Good News within our circle of influence.
I dont think we are going to ever see the world take biblical form until the 2nd coming when every knee shall bow.
The gate is narrow. The weeds will continue to grow with the wheat. Like it or not... that's the plan by His design.
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Post by For His Service on Feb 28, 2019 15:04:11 GMT -6
Hello Everyone, as i read these posts i would like to raise a flag of caution. I think all of us share some disenchantment with the church as we see it. However i would point out just a couple of things.
First; let's remember the devil's favorite deception; to convince good people to do good things at the wrong time. Of course if it's the wrong time then it is not a good thing. Eric is correct in much of what he says. The basic responsibility of the church (that's us and not the gathering structure) is to proclaim the Gospel primarily in thought, word and deed and i might add in wisdom and not ignorance. Having said this we must look to the example of Kg. David who wanted to build a "house" for the Lord. David was very wise, he went in prayer and asked and thus received instruction accordingly. You see David had already learned his lesson by taking on an illegal census. Just because it's a good thing does not mean it is for us to do and even if it is it doesn't necessarily mean we are to do it now.
Second, two things need to happen when it comes to ministry. First prayer and then timing. As Eccl. 3:1-8 says, there is a time and place for everything. That time and place is not our time nor our place; it is God's timing and God's choosing of place. It is precisely by not following these Biblical instruction and principles that many ministries fail. As it is written; who ever builds without the Lord, builds in vain.
Let us all focus on the basic instructions of Acts 1:8 and Matt. 28:19-20. When we do that consistently and pleasing in God's sight, then the Lord will tell us what else He will entrust us with. And, let's remember that we are The Body of Christ with different talents and different responsibilities as the Holy Spirit wills upon on.
In closing I would like to say that God doesn't need much. In most cases only one (such as one Moses, one Christ, one time miracles, etc.) and truthfully He doesn't even need that from us. No one can claim any ministry, we all work for the Kingdom of God and we are all privileged to participate in His ministry as He sees fit. Let us not abuse that privilege but rather let us produce fruit in obedience that we may show that we love God and that our fruit be in accordance with our repentance. There are many very good churches out there as Eric points out that he has found one. How does one quantify "many". By God's typical standard of one. We can all whine about the state of the church and that in most cases justified in our perspective which in the end doesn't count. Only God's perspective counts. Or we can just be about our "Father's business" in obedience and faith.
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John R
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Post by John R on Mar 4, 2019 15:18:05 GMT -6
@ john R You suggested reading an article. An excerpt from that article... This is it, folks. NOW is the time to go on the offense. God has given the American Church a brief window of time to rise up and put an end to baby murder. President Trump has proven himself to be the most vocal pro-life President in American history. “Ripping babies out of the womb” is not OK with him. He stands exposed for the entire world to see; waiting for an “AMEN” from the American Christian Church.
Ending abortion is not the job of the President. It is time we stopped waiting on him to do what Jesus mandated to His Church. Abortion will end when Christians say it will end. It is time for Christians to step up to the plate. We have been given a brief window of opportunity to be obedient to the Lord’s mandate. The American Church is being weighed in a balance. Will we answer the call? Will we move into the gap? Will we walk through the breach that the enemy has exposed? The Supreme Court cannot make law. That pretended legislation is being exposed. The abortion battle is moving to the States. Let’s not miss this moment. THIS IS IT! It is time to end abortion. We can do it one State at a time. -------------- Are you suggesting that it is my duty as a believer to rally against, protest, or take political action to end abortion?
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John R
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Post by John R on Mar 4, 2019 15:31:24 GMT -6
Well maybe. If we believe that all are made in the image of God and that babies are being murdered perhaps as salt and light in the world, Christians should speak out against this unrighteous act. Last week, 44 Senators (many who call themselves Christians) voted that a baby born alive after a failed abortion attempt should not be required by law to provide the necessary care to the child to keep it alive. Is it not our obligation as fellow believers to point out to another believer when he or she is in sin? Perhaps we should find out how our "Christian" Senator voted and remind him or her of what the bible says about murder.
This is well within what the Lord want us to do.
Blessings!
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elacey
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Post by elacey on Mar 4, 2019 18:00:17 GMT -6
John you responded to my question with "Maybe". Then you continued with colorful description of a US political debate topic followed by another question. You wrote: Is it not our obligation as fellow believers to point out to another believer when he or she is in sin? --- For clarity, please first back up and answer with a clear "Yes or No" to my original question previously posted. Regarding this question you raise about our obligations. This question is put in context of USA political debate topic. Let us not confuse religion and politics. United States Lawmakers are bound by oath to the Constitution. Reference Article 6 of the constitution... (there shall be no religious test). This means voters cannot call into question a lawmaker's religious beliefs with regard as to how they do their job. ...this is the "supreme law of the land". As a follower of Christ I am free in Christ to completely ignore US Political debate topics if I choose to. I have zero obligation to advise a congressman for instance regarding perceived spiritual obligations in how they vote. It's trap logic. There can be no religious test placed on them (they chose to get involved in politics and take this oath) which binds them to the constitution and the will of their constituency. This puts them at odds with God's will. (A problem for them when they try to sleep at night... and when Jesus comes again) Reason 463 not to run for office. Not my problem. I have zero obligation to protest any perceived injustice. (Murdering babies included) Its not my job. Its not that I dont care. And if someone asks my opinion... I will tell them abortion is murder. In general... no one really cares about my opinion on this topic. ...this is okay with me. I have a purpose driven life and my circle of concern (with regard to my life purpose) does not include political protest of abortion or anything else. There is a deep topic: The wall of separation between church and state. The church does not pay taxes. Each side (church and state) desire to be free of influence from the other. State (the federal government) does not wish to be told what to do by the Church. If the church wants more influence on the US government... one hand washes the other. Church (any religion) does not want to be regulated in any way by the state as this might infringe on its freedom and liberty to pursue its charge. Thomas Jefferson wrote this regarding the "wall between church and state": Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties." -- There is a difference between letting your beliefs inform your political choices and forcing your religious beliefs on others. Attempting to force US lawmakers to make US law confirm to our religious beliefs is an error. Let US Supreme court reign sovereign over the land of the United States. Let God reign sovereign over his kingdom. But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?” “Caesar’s,” they replied. Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” Matthew 22:18-21 NIV bible.com/bible/111/mat.22.18-21.NIVHere Jesus does not want to debate paying taxes. What atrocities result in our us tax dollars managed by this corrupt government? (too many to list). Would his answer change? Would he demand the Roe v Wade overturned before we pay our taxes? Last thing John. Please comment on how you see your life application of Jesus words in red letter... Matthew 13:24-30 ...in context of our reaction as believers to the atrocity of doctors murdering babies at abortion clinics.
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Eric B
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Post by Eric B on Mar 4, 2019 20:29:59 GMT -6
For His service,
I have been considering what you wrote. Yes, I do whine about the church, probably excessively. I understand where you are coming from that there is one church (one body of believers) and it is good. However, there are many gatherings. These I refer to as churches.
I have lived in the western U.S., the Northwest and the Midwest as a Christian. I have found there are areas in the country that have many good churches in the region. There was a time in my life when I led 1-2 people to Christ every week and I couldn't keep up so I had no problem asking my church and other churches to help with the discipleship.
I believed the Lord was leading me to another part of the country and there too, there were a number of good churches and a harvest field for the Lord.
Then the Lord moved me on to my most challenging field yet. This is where I am now. I interviewed 2-3 dozen churches of different, but conservative slants. I spoke mostly to Pastors. It took me a long time to find a good church. A good church has a doctrinal statement of faith that is considered standard. I won't go into that now. So, what do I consider a "bad church"? The responses I received, about questions I asked, grieved me. These came from traditionally conservative churches that in my past (in other cities), would not have agreed to. Such as: "We believe all good people will go to heaven" "We believe all religions are seeking God and that other religions and some unbelievers will be saved." "We believe that if you don't listen to 'this type of music', after being shown that your taste is wrong, you are not saved." (Note: I love the old hymns and newer worship songs too. I also see that music listening is not mentioned in the New Testament as evidence of salvation.) and the list goes on...
I have been here awhile now. I have seen good churches fall, some to follow a charismatic leader, and others falling into complacency and indifference. Perhaps it is just happening here and my perspective after being in this region over ten years has skewed my perspective of the church as a whole. And maybe it hasn't.
So when I write, I try to base it on the present, where I am now living. If I have offended you, please forgive me, for my part in it.
In Christ, Eric B.
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Post by Admin on Mar 5, 2019 5:47:01 GMT -6
John you responded to my question with "Maybe"... Then you continued with colorful description of a US political debate topic followed by another question... You wrote: Is it not our obligation as fellow believers to point out to another believer when he or she is in sin?...... Regarding this question you raise about our obligations. This question is put in context of USA political debate topic. Let us not confuse religion and politics. United States Lawmakers are bound by oath to the Constitution....... As a follower of Christ I am free in Christ to completely ignore US Political debate topics if I choose to.... I have zero obligation to advise a congressman for instance regarding perceived spiritual obligations in how they vote... I have zero obligation to protest any perceived injustice. (Murdering babies included) Its not my job. Its not that I don't care. And if someone asks my opinion... I will tell them abortion is murder. There is a deep topic: The wall of separation between church and state. The church does not pay taxes. Each side (church and state) desire to be free of influence from the other. State (the federal government) does not wish to be told what to do by the Church.
@ Eric L - Your views are well-stated. Allow me to play the part of protagonist in order to get further clarity.
(1) You you believe abortion is murder. Would you write the same message as above if the US Government somehow managed to legalize citizens' discretionary murder of fully-functioning and viable adults?
(2) When you discuss the wall of separation between church and state in a government by and for the people, how do you reconcile the influence of the church upon the government simply by being part of its constituency? In other words, in Christianity, the people are the church, and in America the people are the government. If the majority of US citizens of voting age were Christians, would that not be expected to shape governmental policy and action?
jb
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elacey
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Post by elacey on Mar 5, 2019 8:34:02 GMT -6
1) Great question. We already have this. Its called capital punishment. I feel the same way in my heart. My political response is the same. States make their laws based on will of the people.
JB I normally don't vote. Politically I am Libertarian with a liberal bend as I believe in having a strong safety net for poor and weak and mentally ill. Also progressive taxes. I might vote for Bernie Sanders if he makes it. He and I are aligned in many ways... except abortion. He is more aligned to the will of the people.
My political view to abortion is that this democracy generally reflects the will of the people. I'm okay with protest... for me I just don't have time to participate.
Above are political views. Opinions.
Everyone has an opinion.
Who cares?
Spiritually I have found peace with all the things wrong in this society and the world in Matthew 13:24-30
The weeds are really godless people
The wheat are believers and future believers (those predestined)
I take Jesus command here very seriously.
Do not try to uproot weeds or you may cause harm to the wheat.
I believe trying to uproot the weeds is the thing Christians today are getting wrong.
I see this as the number one problem in the church today.
Regarding your second question...
So called Christian conservatives view the USA this way as an end around to the separation of church and state.
My view is that precisely because Christians are the majority that the wall of separation is so important.
Go on Facebook and look at posts regarding Muslims.
Today its fashionable in the USA to hurl insults in all sorts of rhetorical ways.
Remember the road is narrow. Most who claim to be Christians in the political landscape are not true believers and are only using Christianity as cover to justify all kinds of crazy stuff.
For instance... supposedly Israel is our strongest ally.
Why?
We (supposedly) need them to help us protect or interests in the middle east.
They need our protection.
No one can ever criticize the giant AIPAC lobby and corruption involved without being labeled anti-semite.
Politicians use Christianity as cover.
There is nothing more twisted and distasteful than mixing politics and religion and the USA is the poster child for this.
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elacey
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Post by elacey on Mar 5, 2019 8:47:14 GMT -6
Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ “ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ “ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ” Matthew 13:24-30 NIV bible.com/bible/111/mat.13.24-30.NIV
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elacey
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Post by elacey on Mar 5, 2019 9:07:35 GMT -6
A recent study shows that 99.9% of US Politicians who label themselves as "Christian conservative" are actually Weeds in disguise.
The above statement is 100% true except for statistic and recent study I reference. I made this up out of thin air.
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manoj
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Post by manoj on Mar 5, 2019 12:39:31 GMT -6
I am not worthy to speak on this matter, but permit me to say a few words. You may have heard a translation of the poem:
When Hitler's regime started their works, the church pretty much sat back and remained silent. And look where that lead.
I have heard people say talking obeying the law of the land, because Bible tells us to submit to the authority. If we interpret it that way then Peter and John should have stopped preaching in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 4:18)
I am glad that people like Wilberforce, Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King Jr and many others did not accept the status quo, but spoke up. Centuries ago, there was Saint Telemachus, a monk, who was instrumental in bringing an end to the gladiator fights in Rome.
The point about the 'circle of influence' is interesting. But, I do not think that this circle is static. Is saying 'that is outside the circle of my influence' just a form of cop out?
Let me be candid: I am not a brave person. Timid and coward describe me better. I even considered changing my display name to 'Coward Christian' because that's what really describes me. That's to say that I am not the one who has any together. And I am not better than you all, but you all are better than me.
We could for the circle of influence to grow before speaking on important matters. Or we could speak up prayerfully and watch our circle of influence grow.
A point to consider about speaking against abortion is this: its victims cannot speak for themselves or defend themselves. Hence, someone needs to be their voice.
Jesus said "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Also, "And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me."
That's my two penny worth! If I have said too much, please forgive me.
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elacey
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Post by elacey on Mar 5, 2019 13:03:46 GMT -6
As an answer to your comment to my description of my circle of influence (is it a cop out)
I've taken a great deal of time to think about and try to describe what my circle of influence entails.
1. I define my circle of influence for the most part.
What is my purpose?
What am I good at or not good at?
What's important to me?
For me... my two boys are number one.
Then my family, friends... girlfriend... my work, etc
I get to choose what's important to me and hopefully I choose based on prayer and God speaking to me personally.
If saving unborn children is important to you... knock yourself out. Start a ministry... start a crusade if you want. You determine your purpose and align your life accordingly.
However don't tell me what I should do or how I should live my life with respect to my purpose.
No amount of reference to the Nazis will change how I read Matthew 13:24-30
The United States government is not a church.
The United States military may have been used in this case for His purpose.
...this is just a huge side topic.
Please reflect on Matthew 13:24-30 and tell me how you justify going against Jesus command in terms of this discussion and in context of protesting abortion.
PS... if you feel the need to protest. Go and protest. You are free to live out your purpose.
Tell me how it goes for you.
I'll be focusing in areas of my own life where I feel my purpose and talents align best.
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JB
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Post by JB on Mar 5, 2019 16:29:03 GMT -6
@ john R You suggested reading an article. An excerpt from that article... This is it, folks. NOW is the time to go on the offense. God has given the American Church a brief window of time to rise up and put an end to baby murder. President Trump has proven himself to be the most vocal pro-life President in American history. “Ripping babies out of the womb” is not OK with him. He stands exposed for the entire world to see; waiting for an “AMEN” from the American Christian Church.
Ending abortion is not the job of the President. It is time we stopped waiting on him to do what Jesus mandated to His Church. Abortion will end when Christians say it will end. It is time for Christians to step up to the plate. We have been given a brief window of opportunity to be obedient to the Lord’s mandate. The American Church is being weighed in a balance. Will we answer the call? Will we move into the gap? Will we walk through the breach that the enemy has exposed? The Supreme Court cannot make law. That pretended legislation is being exposed. The abortion battle is moving to the States. Let’s not miss this moment. THIS IS IT! It is time to end abortion. We can do it one State at a time. -------------- Are you suggesting that it is my duty as a believer to rally against, protest, or take political action to end abortion? Brothers, something is missing in all this discussion that I think, if not expressed, will leave dangerous and wide-open holes in our Christian lives, and that is this: I read here that we all agree that abortion is abhorrent. It is murder. It is sinful. I also read here that none of us is opposed to influencing the degree of governmental support there is for abortion through our votes. God indeed called certain of His people to overtly disrupt society and overthrow governments in order to eradicate sinfulness. For example, "The Lord put out his hand and touched my mouth and said to me, “I have put my words in your mouth. Today I have set you over nations and over kingdoms, to pluck up and to break down, to destroy and to overthrow, to build and to plant” (Jeremiah 2:9-10) . The many examples of holy wars in the Old Testament are other examples of this.
But those situations were exceptional, even in their time. It is not the way God instructed His people to live day-to-day (e.g., Deuteronomy 20:10-11).
They aren't normative today, either. They don't apply to us. The Old Testament scriptures described a period of futility. Many people desired to be holy and pleasing to God, but their righteousness was judged by the Law and they were unable to uphold it fully. The Law couldn’t accomplish its purpose of making people holy ( Romans 8:3). Destroying evil was often the only hope for some semblance of positive change. We are called to be world changers. Changing the world was the very reason God became man, dwelt among us, and died and rose to redeem us. When He left this earth, He entrusted that ministry to His disciples to carry on ( John 17, et al). Christians are most definitely called to be world changers. I'm not aware that anyone here doubts or denies that, but it’s important to me to discuss what we should be doing, not just what we shouldn't. The problem is that changing the government and changing the laws is superficial. As God demonstrated to us throughout the Old Testament, laws can influence the choices people make out of guilt or out of fear, but laws cannot change people.
Moral laws don't make people moral.
Moral people make moral laws.
So laws can’t fix the problem unless the entire world is born again and transformed by the Holy Spirit. And if that were the case, laws would be unnecessary. Outside-in change will always be superficial, always temporary. Our primary mission is to cause individual people to change (through rebirth) rather than causing a society to change. Changing the world only ever occurs one soul at a time, and that is ultimately the Holy Spirit's work. We are just beggars showing other beggars where we got the bread. "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." (Romans 12:2)
“ Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations . . . teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you.” ( Matthew 28:19–20)
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manoj
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Regular contributor
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Post by manoj on Mar 5, 2019 16:34:58 GMT -6
elacey I missed one of your earlier messages in this thread and hence misunderstood where you are coming from. Please accept my apologies.
I am with you on the point of not letting anybody tell you as an individual what you should or should not do. That would be legalism and a yoke of bondage.
There are people who say 'it is your duty as a believer to vote'. There intentions may be noble, but I don't agree with them. Nowhere in the Bible it says to vote for the political offices. And that doesn't mean believers should not vote.
It's important that we be lead by the Spirit.
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elacey
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Dedicated TruthSeeker
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Post by elacey on Mar 5, 2019 16:53:03 GMT -6
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