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Post by Admin on Mar 1, 2020 14:04:55 GMT -6
Study Begins: March 01, 2020
Discussion Begins: March 08, 2020
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24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.English Standard Version (ESV) |
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John R
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Post by John R on Mar 2, 2020 10:58:12 GMT -6
“Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.” (Romans 1: 24-25)
God is very good to us. He does not interfere with the desires of our hearts. He knows what our hearts are drawn toward and Paul here emphasizes this point directly, God gave them up “to impurity and the dishonoring of their bodies”, and let mankind have what he wanted (“the lusts of their hearts”). Sin is associated with a transaction (exchange the truth about God for a lie about the impurity and dishonor of the perpetrator’s body).
Dishonoring the body is an interesting choice of words. In the verses ahead, Paul explains further: “For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1: 26-27) Exchanging God’s use of the natural relations (sexual relations) for homosexual sex dishonors our body. God obviously has a high view of His creation and we desecrate ourselves when we act in this way.
I am very surprised at how divisive homosexuality is within the American church. It is so offensive to God yet many in the churches vociferously defend gay anything as being “loving” and opposition hateful. I know this is a work of the Accuser.
God views this act of depravity as “debased,” and the perpetrators “unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice, envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, and ruthless.”
The saddest part of all this is in the last verse: “Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” (1:32) This one is for the pastors, and the lay people who condone what dishonors God. Paul declares, defense of homosexuality, makes us as guilty before God as those who commit the sin physically. The division of the church over this topic is to me the separation of the wheat from the tares (Matthew 13) or the sheep from the goats, (Matthew 25: 31-46). “… And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!” (Matthew 7:21-23) I pray that all who are in the goat pen repent, and I pray for the courage to tell the goats the truth before their blood is on my hands.
Blessings!
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elacey
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Post by elacey on Mar 5, 2020 8:43:55 GMT -6
v1:24-25 (lie) this is a reference to Isaiah 44:20 Such a person feeds on ashes; a deluded heart misleads him; he cannot save himself, or say, “Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?” Isaiah 44:20 NIV isaiah.bible/isaiah-44-20-- A person who does not worship the one true God (follower of Jesus Christ - true believer) deludes himself and therefore is doomed as he is power-less to save himself. |
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JB
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Post by JB on Mar 5, 2020 21:51:35 GMT -6
1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator -who is forever praised. Amen.
For context, here's a summary of the message leading up to these verses: - God made both Himself and His truth plain to everyone (1:21).
- He did that because He loves His creation and doesn't want anyone to have an excuse to not worship Him.
- Everyone knows God, and everyone knows His truth (1:23). All anyone needs to do is look around at the natural order of things.
- But even though everyone knows Him, many reject Him.
- They choose instead to worship (which means "elevate the value of") the things they create out of the stuff He created (1:22).
- Those are their favorite idols. The result is futility. The result is also their hearts becoming dark (1:23).
God's response was to let their depravity progress. Here's how it happened - and still happens: - First He gave them over to their sinful desires.
- That resulted in sexual impurity (v. 24).
- Next they replaced God's truth – which they knew – with self-deception (v.25).
- Finally they began to worship (which means "value") God’s creation rather than God Himself (v. 25).
On a human level, my parents did the same with me in my rebellious, sinful teen years. They had taught me right from wrong. I knew God existed and I knew what He wanted from me. My parents disciplined and reasoned with me about my horrible choices and my rejection of the God I knew. But I poopooed everything they said and continued to swirl down the drain of self-destruction. Fortunately, in a jail cell in 1987, I recognized the futility of my depraved thinking and gave my life to God.
1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
So, God allowed their depravity to increase. He gave them over to “shameful lusts" (v:26) This resulted in an even more perverse sexual immorality - homosexuality. Homosexuality, including training young boys for this lifestyle, was common in the Roman and Greek cultures of the day. Some even encouraged it as the preferred lifestyle. Though some Jews in Rome and Greece participated, most Jews considered it repulsive. It was considered a “Gentile” practice. God was quite clear in the Mosaic Law how he felt about homosexuality and its results:
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion. Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled” (Lev 22:18-24). Many today argue that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. That opinion is everywhere, including from many who worship our God. Google it. I want feel shocked that anyone could argue that position biblically, but then these verses stand up and scream their message: People who argue that are suppressing what they know to be true. They are exchanging the truth for a lie and loving creation above its Creator. Nature itself teaches us the futility of homosexuality. If everyone were heterosexual, the world would continue to thrive. If everyone were homosexual, the earth would become depopulated in the span of a generation.
1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Now they’ve done it! Now they are following their own course without Him. So He gave them over to a “depraved mind.” This resulted in them doing things they shouldn’t do and ultimately resulted in “ every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity (1:29).” Included in this list are envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice, gossips, slander, God-hating, insolence, arrogance, boasting, inventing ways of doing evil, disobeying parents, senselessness, faithlessness, heartlessness, ruthlessness. Again, look around. These are everywhere around us, aren't they? Not only does everyone know God. Everyone knows that God has determined that these things are wrong and deserve death. Yet they continue in them and approve of others who do them. Pure rebellion! "Out of the closet” is the mantra of most sins today. Do them openly! Promote them! Teach our children to enjoy them! Sin is blatant and celebrated - rather than not shameful - in today's world. Our society not only practices but approves!
Do you remember when fornication was something done behind closed doors? Do you remember when it was shameful for a couple to live together, out-of-wedlock pregnancies were kept a secret, and promiscuous couples had to lie and say they were married for hotels to allow them to share a room? Do you remember when, though we may have heard the word “gay” from another kid, we didn't actually know anyone who was openly homosexual?
Can you believe sodomy was officially a crime in the USA, and the laws against it were overturned only as recently as 2003? All of this reverses the natural, created order of things – what is often called "natural law." And, Paul says, that fact is evident to all. If someone decided to ignore the natural law of gravity, he would suffer the consequences and we would say “he should have seen that coming.” The same is true of moral and spiritual laws. Murder, for example, is obviously wrong. If everyone did it there would be no one left except the last murderer, and it would destroy the continuation of the human race. Homosexuality is also obviously wrong by nature. Like murder, if everyone did it there would be no one left. The human race would vanish. So the depravity which God allows them to experience is a depravity of the obvious. All these sins elevate man and a lower God. Big Me, small god. When mankind goes this direction there seems to be nothing to do but watch the downfall. In the end, sin is man worshiping his desires rather than God. |
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elacey
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Post by elacey on Mar 6, 2020 8:39:14 GMT -6
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Romans 1:26-27 NIV bible.com/bible/111/rom.1.26-27.NIVPaul is saying that when someone rejects God, exchanges the Truth of Jesus for a LIE... ...maybe by denying His existence, or maybe by worshiping idols (money, power, fame), or maybe by drinking to intoxication and disconnecting from God by shutting out the Holy Spirit (I've struggled with binge drinking again over the last 3 years and today admit to you and God and myself that I am alcoholic)... ... that God gives them over to shameful lusts. We proper righteous Christians like to point to homosexuality in Leviticus on this one, however we should move a few lines up on that page... neighbors wife. Ever thought about it? |
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elacey
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Post by elacey on Mar 6, 2020 8:42:00 GMT -6
These shameful lusts are literally the fast track to self destruction.
Hell is a place that one builds for him or her self when they reject God.
Exchange God for the LIE and know that God will literally give you enough rope to hang yourself.
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John R
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Post by John R on Mar 9, 2020 11:47:28 GMT -6
JB wrote, "When mankind goes this direction there seems to be nothing to do but watch the downfall. In the end, sin is man worshiping his desires rather than God."
The saddest aspect of this, is the Church has become impotent to reverse the trend. It was said above, many "believers" argue for the homosexual position as "their life, their choice." Society unfortunately reaps the reward of those choices. Whether it is sodomy, adultery, or abortion, society is adversely affected by all of those personal decisions. The laws against these practices were in place because the lawmakers knew that these behaviors were detrimental to society just as are theft, terrorism and murder. Repealing the law only broadens the pool of innocent victims and drives our country closer to moral and financial ruin.
Selfish acts always have consequences for those who do not participate, that is why they are considered selfish. These practices will end when the Church decides to put an end to them. "All power in heaven and on earth has been given unto Me, go ye therefore....(Matthew 28) God already said He would back us up. Unfortunately none are willing to pay the cost of standing against them, including me.
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JB
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Post by JB on Mar 10, 2020 11:52:14 GMT -6
Here are some questions I asked of the text during my study: - What forms of human wickedness hold back (“suppress”) the truth of God’s divine nature?
- In what ways does God exercise wrath against the wickedness of people who suppress this truth?
- What does “God gave them over” mean?
Regarding God giving them over to shameful lusts (v. 26) and a depraved mind (v. 28), I think it's worthwhile to compare this text with 2 Thessalonians. 2:10-12: “They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.” We see God taking an active role here, sending them a delusion that causes them to believe the lie. But that is only after they refused to believe the truth and delighted in wickedness instead.
The progression in 1 Thessalonians is: - People refuse to believe the truth
- People delight in wickedness
- God sends them a delusion
- They believe a lie
There's a difference here between not believing the truth and believing a lie. I would guess that those who some like to call "pre-believers" - the unsaved whose hearts are fertile for the seed of the gospel - are in a state between those. They haven't believed the truth yet, but neither have they rejected it and believed a lie. They despise the wickedness they see, which is why their hearts are fertile. Back to Romans, it's important to remember that they (like everyone) knew God. But they didn't consider retaining that knowledge of Him to be worthwhile. At that point, God took the active step of giving them over to a depraved mind (v1:28). That would be the equivalent of "sending them a powerful delusion" in the 1Thessalonians passage above. Before He did that, though, He gave them over only to their shameful lusts (v. 26). Putting this all together (Roman and 1Thessalonians), I think this is what happens: - Everyone knows God
- Everyone encounters wickedness
- Everyone has a choice to make - love God or love wickedness.
- Those who love God are saved
- Those who love wickedness are given over to it [See my note below] so they can see it run its course.
- Some who are given over to wickedness turn back to God. They love Him more than they love wickedness.
- Some who are given over to wickedness love wickedness more than they do God.
- When they ultimately choose wickedness, God deludes their minds - He gives up on them, and they no longer believe in Him.
- For them, wickedness continues to increase (vv. 29-31)
- The ultimate result is that "they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
Regarding my note #5: "Those who love wickedness are given over to it"...
This suggests that up to this point in a person's life God has restrained them from some wickedness. He's holding them back until #8 above. He is giving them some degree of freedom to pursue their lusts, but He won't allow them to wander past limits.
I can attest to this in my bad-boy years. I always wanted to go farther and be "badder" than I was. I wanted to do heavier drugs than I did. I wanted to practice witchcraft. I wanted to commit bigger crimes than I did.
I actually tried to do these things. I made plans, even intricate ones. But I was simply unable. Some combination of conscience and circumstance oddly foiled my plans every time. It frustrated me at the time. I believe God was restraining me past the point of no return where He would completely give me over.
Looking back, I can see that God was restraining me. He hadn't given up on me yet because I hadn't decided that my knowledge of God wasn't worth retaining. In fact, I got into many theological debates (me arguing for God and Christ) while I was stoned, drunk, or dropping acid with my buds. Remember - I was raised in a solid Christian home. And in my entire life, I've never once used God's name in vain, even when I spewed the filthiest of words on a regular basis. Never His name. At some level, I knew and respected God. My point here is simply that, as much as I wanted to do harder core stuff than I did, something always got in my way. That may well have been God restraining me to preserve me for the day I would submit to Him.
I think Romans 1 describes what I experienced. God knew I hadn't yet abandoned Him altogether, so He didn't abandon me. When I became incarcerated, however, I had seen the trajectory of sin and God brought a Christian minister in my life. I had a choice to make - continue or surrender.
I shudder to think that, just perhaps, if I had chosen wrongly at that time that God may have given me over to a depraved mind and sent me a delusion so I would believe the lie.
Here are a couple of parallel passages.
The first, I think shows Paul engaging in God's Rom 1:24-26 process:
Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (1TIM 1:18-20)
The second, I think, shows Paul telling a church to engage in that same process:
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1CO 5:1-5)
In the first passage above, the people Paul handed over to Satan had rejected "holding on to the faith" (knowledge of God) and "a good conscience" (abandoning wickedness) just as in Romans 1 - even to the point of blasphemy!
Perhaps this is even implied in Matthew 18 when Jesus instructs us to first approach a sinning brother one-on-one, then if necessary, approach him with one or two witnesses, then if necessary bring him before the entire church, and then "if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector" (v. 17).
Q: Have you experienced this in your own life as I have in mine, where God prevented you from going as far off the path as you intended to?
Q: What things would you list from 1:20-32 that we can learn from nature about God.
Q: What sins and effects result from suppressing the truth?
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JB
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Post by JB on Mar 10, 2020 12:48:16 GMT -6
These shameful lusts are literally the fast track to self destruction. Hell is a place that one builds for him or her self when they reject God. Exchange God for the LIE and know that God will literally give you enough rope to hang yourself ... that God gives them over to shameful lusts. We proper righteous Christians like to point to homosexuality in Leviticus on this one, however we should move a few lines up on that page... neighbors wife. Ever thought about it? Eric. this is a very important point. Humanly, we elevate one sin above another. Many Christians would not come down nearly as hard on a husband who has an affair with another woman as they would a man who has sex with another man. Many would elevate murder above a "little white lie." Many would elevate the sinfulness of alcohol abuse above food abuse.
But sin is an offense against God. No sin is small.
I wouldn't normally do this, but it fits so well that I feel I must: I'm gradually, slowly writing a commentary on Genesis 1-6 for the thinking person. The book opens with this (which I think is relevant here):
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JB
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Post by JB on Mar 13, 2020 11:34:40 GMT -6
“Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.” (Romans 1: 24-25) God is very good to us. He does not interfere with the desires of our hearts. He knows what our hearts are drawn toward and Paul here emphasizes this point directly, God gave them up “to impurity and the dishonoring of their bodies”, and let mankind have what he wanted ( “the lusts of their hearts”). Sin is associated with a transaction (exchange the truth about God for a lie about the impurity and dishonor of the perpetrator’s body). Dishonoring the body is an interesting choice of words. In the verses ahead, Paul explains further: “For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1: 26-27) Exchanging God’s use of the natural relations (sexual relations) for homosexual sex dishonors our body. God obviously has a high view of His creation and we desecrate ourselves when we act in this way. I am very surprised at how divisive homosexuality is within the American church. It is so offensive to God yet many in the churches vociferously defend gay anything as being “loving” and opposition hateful. I know this is a work of the Accuser. God views this act of depravity as “debased,” and the perpetrators “unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice, envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, and ruthless.”
The saddest part of all this is in the last verse: “Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” (1:32) This one is for the pastors, and the lay people who condone what dishonors God. Paul declares, defense of homosexuality, makes us as guilty before God as those who commit the sin physically. The division of the church over this topic is to me the separation of the wheat from the tares (Matthew 13) or the sheep from the goats, (Matthew 25: 31-46). “… And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!” (Matthew 7:21-23) I pray that all who are in the goat pen repent, and I pray for the courage to tell the goats the truth before their blood is on my hands. Blessings! John, your comments are spot on. Homosexuality has come and gone many times over the centuries as a practice that is flaunted openly. At other times - like during the years you and I were growing up - it has been treated as a shameful practice that wasn't made public. In my elementary and middle school years, calling someone "gay" was recognized as a playful insult, not something any of us took seriously, almost like calling someone a stupid. I don't think I knew that there were actual gay people until late middle school, and it was still considered odd and wrong.
HOWEVER, in those days premarital sex was rampant. Sexual stuff was everywhere. In my little town, no one stopped a teen aged boy from leafing through a Playboy magazine in the convenience store, where they were displayed at eye level. Teen pregnancy was common. Every boy thought he was supposed to find a girlfriend or two who would "put out" (or at least lie that he had such a girlfriend), and every girl felt pressured to fill that expectation. Many adult couples I knew openly lived together outside of marriage, and many more did so secretly. Respectable hotels wouldn't allow a man and woman to share a hotel room unless they claimed to be married.
My point in speaking about the 1970s and 1980s in this context is that sexual immorality is a persistent societal issue, either secretly or openly. Sin is sin, and heterosexual deviance is no better than homosexual deviance.
Modern Christians need to quit elevating the latter over the former and speak out against each (and all sin) equally.
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
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