JB
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Post by JB on Apr 15, 2017 22:19:23 GMT -6
Study Begins: April 16, 2017
Discussion Begins: April 23, 2017
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1 For I made up my mind not to make another painful visit to you. 2 For if I cause you pain, who is there to make me glad but the one whom I have pained? 3 And I wrote as I did, so that when I came I might not suffer pain from those who should have made me rejoice, for I felt sure of all of you, that my joy would be the joy of you all. 4 For I wrote to you out of much affliction and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to cause you pain but to let you know the abundant love that I have for you.
5 Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you. 6 For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, 7 so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. 10 Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, 11 so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.
12 When I came to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ, even though a door was opened for me in the Lord, 13 my spirit was not at rest because I did not find my brother Titus there. So I took leave of them and went on to Macedonia.
[English Standard Version] |
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john
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Post by john on Apr 17, 2017 8:55:55 GMT -6
In verses 1-4 Paul is telling the believers at Corinth rather than visiting to pass on information that will be painful to hear. He, out of love for them, is choosing to write a letter. He loves these people and wants them to learn and not hold his reprimand of them against Paul. We all can learn that constructive criticism should be welcomed as we learn something new. As we journey toward a deeper knowledge of Christ and what it means to follow Him we should learn from those who have met experience and accept criticism and correction in a loving manner, not holding a grudge against our teacher.
He is Risen!
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JB
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Post by JB on Apr 22, 2017 23:20:03 GMT -6
1 For I made up my mind not to make another painful visit to you. 2 For if I cause you pain, who is there to make me glad but the one whom I have pained? In the previous section, some of the Corinthian believers accused Paul of taking his promises lightly and not living up to his word. That’s because he said he’d visit them and then he chose not to. Paul explained that he fully intended to visit them, but for their best interest he did not. They wanted him to come as the boss-preacher, who would authoritatively put his foot down on their current internal struggles. That showed a distorted understanding of both Paul’s role as a minister and of their own roles as ministers. It would have been an unhealthy visit, so he chose not to come. As he explained it, he chose not to visit in order to spare them (2 Cor 1:23). 3 And I wrote as I did, so that when I came I might not suffer pain from those who should have made me rejoice, for I felt sure of all of you, that my joy would be the joy of you all. 4 For I wrote to you out of much affliction and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to cause you pain but to let you know the abundant love that I have for you. 5 Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you. 6 For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, 7 so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. Back in 1 Corinthians 5, a man was involved in sexual immorality with his father’s wife. Paul instructed the church to “deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord” (1 Cor 5:5). He advised them to put the man out of their fellowship. That man is still disfellowshipped. Paul says “that’s enough now.” He has been punished enough. It’s time to forgive, comfort, and reaffirm their love for this wayward brother so that he’s not overwhelmed by sorrow. Note: It’s impossible to know for certain that the man in 1 Corinthians 5 is the same one mentioned here. It certainly seems like it to me, though it means he’d been shunned for the 2-3 years that lapsed between the 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians letters. Even if it were a different situation, the principle would be the same.Questions to ponder: What are the consequences of us tolerating sin? What are the consequences of us rejecting sinners? What causes Christians and churches to tolerate sin in other believers? I’d like feedback on those questions if you’re so inclined. 9 For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. 10 Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, 11 so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.
Paul now lets them know that if they forgive this sinning believer, he will forgive him as well (v. 10). But, if they did not forgive him, Satan might outwit them (v.11). So here are the three things from vv.7-8 this church is to do for this wayward brother: They are to (1) forgive him, (2) comfort him, and (3) reaffirm their love for him. If they don’t do those things, Paul says Satan might outwit them. What does he mean by that? How could Satan capitalize on their continued shunning? What comes to my mind is that it might cause the man to despair, it might cause the church to become hardened, it might cause the world to see the church as not being a place for sinners (which it most certainly is). The church must welcome sinners. Yet we must also not tolerate sin. There is no stronger statement of that than 2 Thess 3:14-15: “ If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.”
Unwillingness to discipline sin is a terrible problem. So is unwillingness to forgive, comfort, and love sinners. It is quite a challenge to do both of those faithfully. 12 When I came to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ, even though a door was opened for me in the Lord, 13 my spirit was not at rest because I did not find my brother Titus there. So I took leave of them and went on to Macedonia. Paul right here is beginning a huge sidetrack. That isn’t unusual his writing. In Ephesians 3:1 he even began a sentence that he never finished! But the current parentheses is much longer than elsewhere, lasting from 2 Corinthians 2:12 to 7:5.
He says here that he went to Troas to preach the gospel because the Lord had opened a door for him there. But at a personal level, Paul went there to see Titus, who was the man responsible for keeping Paul up-to-date on this church at Corinth. But Titus wasn’t there. So he left Troas and went to Macedonia. Did you catch that? God opened a door for Paul, but Paul put his own purpose ahead of God’s purpose and failed to follow God's direction. This has often troubled me, probably because, like many Bible students, I give Paul too much “super-Christian” status. Paul admitted here to a failure to obey God. He was a human Christian, too. We’ll learn in 2 Cor 7:5-7 that when he got to Macedonia, Titus came to meet him, and that satisfied Paul’s longing for a report on the church at Corinth. What causes us to be tempted to not follow God’s leading or take advantage of an opportunity He puts before us? |
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john
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Post by john on Apr 24, 2017 7:21:45 GMT -6
What are the consequences of tolerating sin?
Setting aside displeasing God which should be our greatest concern, tolerating sin (in the Body of Christ) leads to false doctrine and the falling away from God of the entire community of believers. Judges 2:12 reminds "And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers,...and followed other gods, of the gods of the people around them,....and provoked the LORD to anger." "....they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD..." (2:17)
I liken this to the modern day church, turning away from the commandments of God and walking after homosexuality, abortion, and many other practices of the world around us. And now even Franklin Graham is being turned away in many places by "so called" evangelicals (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/February-web-only/Vancouver-evangelicals-franklin-graham-festival-hope-trump.html). Bowing down to the gods around them have caused pastors to fear more the gods of this world more than God. Why, because they tolerated sin in their own house and now it is changing their doctrine.
Blessings
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john
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Post by john on Apr 24, 2017 7:27:44 GMT -6
What are the consequences of us rejecting sinners?
We are all sinners so reject those who are outside the church will keep them out and will feed the general feeling that the Body of Christ are "just a bunch of hypocrites." Just as Jesus did we are to love sinners. We are to meet them where they are and invite them into our lives. Then after we have spent time with them God will prepare their hearts to hear the gospel. Then and only then will they receive it. If we true to the sinner, how can they see the love of Jesus Christ but through us?
Blessings!
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john
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Post by john on Apr 24, 2017 10:18:55 GMT -6
What causes Christians and churches to tolerate sin in other believers?
I would say:
1. Our own sin and the guilt that we have and unwillingness for it to be exposed.
2. Not wanting to offend anyone and risk them leaving the church (especially true of pastors).
3. Not knowing what offends God because of unfamiliarity with God's word.
Blessings!
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john
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Post by john on Apr 24, 2017 10:25:54 GMT -6
What causes us to be tempted to not follow God's leading or take advantage of an opportunity He puts before us?
I believe our biggest obstacle is failure to complete trust God. I can speak for myself here. When I boil down any of my failures to follow His lead, fear of what might happen is at the root. What it I fail? What if they don't like me? What if...? I seem to forget it is God's leading and not mine. Why should I fear if God is leading? Perhaps it is my own uncertainty of my ability to hear Him.
Good questions JB! Thanks for your dedication to Truth Seekers, I pray our old friends will return and join us.
Blessings!
John
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elacey
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Post by elacey on Apr 25, 2017 6:24:09 GMT -6
Oh my goodness. This morning I read this text and this is going to take me a day or two to try to unpack.
JB thank you for your excellent commentary. The questions you raise are very important as we seek to understand the truth regarding ...
Law
Sin
Grace
Mercy
I'll try my best to come back to this over the next day or two.
For me... I've benefited from your excellent commentary and the discussion going on between you and John.
Thank you both my brothers!
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elacey
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Post by elacey on Apr 26, 2017 6:19:13 GMT -6
V8 Paul asks the church to reaffirm their Christian love for the man who broke the Law.
V11 Paul warns the church that Satan can use the Law to outwit us.
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JB
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Post by JB on Apr 26, 2017 22:16:59 GMT -6
What are the consequences of tolerating sin? Setting aside displeasing God which should be our greatest concern, tolerating sin (in the Body of Christ) leads to false doctrine and the falling away from God of the entire community of believers. Judges 2:12 reminds "And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers,...and followed other gods, of the gods of the people around them,....and provoked the LORD to anger." "....they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD..." (2:17) I liken this to the modern day church, turning away from the commandments of God and walking after homosexuality, abortion, and many other practices of the world around us. And now even Franklin Graham is being turned away in many places by "so called" evangelicals ( www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/February-web-only/Vancouver-evangelicals-franklin-graham-festival-hope-trump.html). Bowing down to the gods around them have caused pastors to fear more the gods of this world more than God. Why, because they tolerated sin in their own house and now it is changing their doctrine. Blessings Wow, John, thank you for referring to the Christianity Today article. Franklin Graham was uninvited to speak at a Billy Graham Evangelistic Association event in Canada. That is just incredible. The first thing that smacks me in the face as I read the article is that, while the Corinthians' primary fault was that they were tolerant of sin, the primary fault of these Canadian churches is that they are intolerant of righteousness. Painted with a broad brush, I'd say that sums up one of the major issues in today's American churches. The article says that " a group of fellow evangelicals has joined local Christian leaders asking him not to speak."
The protesters are described as "leaders representing 60 percent of Vancouver’s Christians. Pastors from Baptist, Reformed, Foursquare, Vineyard, and nondenominational churches signed the letter, along with representatives from Catholic and mainline churches." EVANGELICAL. That's what these church leaders are called in the article. What does evangelical mean, anyhow? Merriam-Webster defines it this way: " Of, relating to, or being in agreement with the Christian gospel especially as it is presented in the four Gospels ... emphasizing salvation by faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ through personal conversion, the authority of Scripture, and the importance of preaching as contrasted with ritual." That's about as good a definition as any. Yet, the article points out that these church leaders opposed Franklin Graham specifically because he preaches personal conversion and relies on the authority of scripture. It is " particularly his characterizations of the LGBT community" as well as his political positions regarding Muslims and immigration makes these so-called church leaders fear that he " won’t be a good fit to share the Good News with the more progressive people of Vancouver. Especially not right now."
What these leaders obviously fear is that the power of the Holy Spirit might overcome the power of their watered-down, feel good, I'M OK, You're OK messages that they believe is what draws sinners. But no sinner has ever been drawn to Christ and saved by His power without confronting sin in his or her life and the sin that pervades our world. Evangelism, even "evangelicalism," requires first that a man knows he needs saved because of his sin so that he yearns for the solution, which is new birth into a living hope.
Corinth was tolerant of unrighteousness. Vancouver (and the western world) is intolerant of righteousness. |
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JB
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Post by JB on Apr 27, 2017 20:59:16 GMT -6
V8 Paul asks the church to reaffirm their Christian love for the man who broke the Law. Eric, I wonder how the Corinthian church was feeling about this man when Paul wrote to them. If this was in fact the man who was treating his father's wife as if she were his own in 1 Corinthians 5, he ad been out of their fellowship for several years. At first I thought maybe they were repulsed by him and his incestuous sin and felt "good riddance." But then I remember that in 1 Corinthians 5 Paul had to tell them to quit putting up with him and to turn him over to the hands of Satan. So at that time, they were tolerating him and his sin. Had they forgotten him after disfellowshipping him? That seems quite possible in modern Christianity, but a church in that time in history didn't have hundreds or thousands of members like today, and people hopping from one congregation to another. Christianity wasn't mainstream. They were meeting in peoples' homes. Losing a member would be felt, and remembered. There's nothing in the text that I can see that indicates how they felt about this former member of their house church. As for me, I would like to think I would be missing him, ministering to him during his shunning, and hoping to love him back to righteousness. That's what I'd like to think I'd do. I'm not certain if it's how I would really do things. I can say that there was a man and woman who were part of a small group I led several years ago. James and Alma. They were living together. Alma was a long-time believer and had at one point been very active in and committed to her faith. James was not. He had almost no knowledge of Christianity or the Bible at all. Our small group was evangelistic n nature by design, so it wasn't uncommon to have people who were involved in all sorts of sin be a part of our group. But what about Alma? Should I have refused for her to be part of it? Should our group have disfellowshipped her? At some point they decided to get married. The pastor of the church said that in order for him to marry them, they had to commit to living separately and refrain from sex for 6 months. They did and he did marry them. Did I and did the church act rightly or wrongly here? jb |
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JB
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Post by JB on Apr 27, 2017 21:01:37 GMT -6
V11 Paul warns the church that Satan can use the Law to outwit us. Eric - That is a great way to summarize verse 11. The Law, which God established for our righteousness, could not accomplish its purpose in us because we were fallen creatures in need of rebirth, not rules. |
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JB
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Post by JB on Apr 27, 2017 21:23:05 GMT -6
What are the consequences of tolerating sin? ...Judges 2:12 reminds " And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers,...and followed other gods, of the gods of the people around them,....and provoked the LORD to anger." "....they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD..." (2:17)I liken this to the modern day church, turning away from the commandments of God and walking after homosexuality, abortion, and many other practices of the world around us. ... Bowing down to the gods around them have caused pastors to fear more the gods of this world more than God. Why, because they tolerated sin in their own house and now it is changing their doctrine. That is exactly what is happening! Churches have redirected their focus upon membership rather than saved souls, and upon befriending rather than conviction! That is exactly what was going on regarding Franklin Graham in Vancouver. These is such a temptation in churches to use secular methods to draw people. In his early year, even Billy Graham himself reportedly laced his audiences with hundreds or thousands of people who would raise hands and go forward during the invitation because that would prompt others who were convicted-but-not-acting-on-it to go forward to be ministered to. In Vancouver, the ministers blocking Franklin were concerned that his straight message about sin and repentance might offend and drive some away. We need to return to believing that it is the Holy Spirit, and Him alone, who can convict a man toward repentance and that Christ has called us to change the world, not to add members to our churches. |
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elacey
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Post by elacey on Apr 27, 2017 21:23:08 GMT -6
V8 Paul asks the church to reaffirm their Christian love for the man who broke the Law. Eric, I wonder how the Corinthian church was feeling about this man when Paul wrote to them. If this was in fact the man who was treating his father's wife as if she were his own in 1 Corinthians 5, he ad been out of their fellowship for several years. At first I thought maybe they were repulsed by him and his incestuous sin and felt "good riddance." But then I remember that in 1 Corinthians 5 Paul had to tell them to quit putting up with him and to turn him over to the hands of Satan. So at that time, they were tolerating him and his sin. Had they forgotten him after disfellowshipping him? That seems quite possible in modern Christianity, but a church in that time in history didn't have hundreds or thousands of members like today, and people hopping from one congregation to another. Christianity wasn't mainstream. They were meeting in peoples' homes. Losing a member would be felt, and remembered. There's nothing in the text that I can see that indicates how they felt about this former member of their house church. As for me, I would like to think I would be missing him, ministering to him during his shunning, and hoping to love him back to righteousness. That's what I'd like to think I'd do. I'm not certain if it's how I would really do things. I can say that there was a man and woman who were part of a small group I led several years ago. James and Alma. They were living together. Alma was a long-time believer and had at one point been very active in and committed to her faith. James was not. He had almost no knowledge of Christianity or the Bible at all. Our small group was evangelistic n nature by design, so it wasn't uncommon to have people who were involved in all sorts of sin be a part of our group. But what about Alma? Should I have refused for her to be part of it? Should our group have disfellowshipped her? At some point they decided to get married. The pastor of the church said that in order for him to marry them, they had to commit to living separately and refrain from sex for 6 months. They did and he did marry them. Did I and did the church act rightly or wrongly here? jb After two failed marriages I don't think the church has any business telling couples they can't have choose to live together. Family court laws in this country allow women to destroy men financially. Marriage is over rated and marriage law is twisted for the welfare state against men... Yet we look the other way as women can commit adultery then turn around and strip the man of all his money. In general I think churches are too legalistic. This is a very large conversation and In not sure I can do the topic justice. We make interpretations about things... Marijuana for instance. A flower made by God with medicinal properties is not a chemical like alcohol or meth. Yet we have legalistic father's disowning their kids over this. Hogwash. We should allow God to make judgement in the final days and focus on living out our purpose... Discipleship. |
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JB
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Post by JB on Apr 29, 2017 11:37:51 GMT -6
We should allow God to make judgement in the final days and focus on living out our purpose... Discipleship. Hi Eric. Discipleship is definitely our calling, all of us. Full disclosure... I have been married three times. My first marriage was teenage rebellion. I was 18 but still a senior in High School. I was a pretty bad kid, and I married my girlfriend simply to rebel against my parents. I divorced her 2 years later when I caught her in bed with our best friend. Honestly, I had planned to divorce her before that, that just tipped the scales for me. My second marriage gave me my sons. I was saved and became a follower of Christ several months after we married. We were married for 17 years. She was a violent abuser - physically, even in front of the kids. I consistently, through God's grace, refused to retaliate. She decided to develop and continue a relationship with someone else's husband. When I discovered the affair, I offered her forgiveness and did everything I could to preserve the marriage. She would not budge. She divorced me, and in Ohio I had no choice. Two families were damaged by that. My current wife and I will celebrate 13 years of marriage in October. I have definitely seen some pretty bad stuff, and I certainly share your feelings about the flawed court systems. Yet I cannot read Ephesians 5 describe marriage as a shadow of the relationship between Christ and the church and think badly of marriage. I can't read that passage and see how selflessly Christ (my Husband) loved me and how reprehensibly I (His bride) have acted against Him and neglected Him and believe that God doesn't hold marriage in high regard. We talk about men and women living together, and we mean something more than when I lived with my sister for a short while. I guess I don't have a problem with a man and woman, even who are in love, sharing a home. I knew a couple that met in their late 80's and fell in love. Both of them crippled in various ways. They lived together outside of marriage for companionship, to help each other in old age and, I would assume, in celibacy. Probably nothing wrong there. But I don't expect many healthier and younger couples to be able to create that sort of living together situation. Sex, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7, is only an optional part of life. He also said it is better to marry than to burn with lustful passion. And because I consider Discipleship to about helping each other grow to be more Christ-like and more biblically faithful, it's challenging for me to think sexuality and marriage are not important components of discipleship. Regarding divorce, when I discovered what my previous wife was doing, God brought one long passage to my mind that convicted me and directed my response in a very powerful way. I'll reproduce the biblical text below, but first I want to say that at the time I re-wrote it as a letter to her, putting myself in God's place and her in His peoples' place, and changed the context to our situation. I did this because I wanted to know if I was responding to her rightly and godly - putting parameters around our relationship but inviting her to return to the marriage. Jeremiah 2:2-4:1
2:2 “I remember how eager you were to please me as a young bride long ago, how you loved me and followed me even through the barren wilderness... 5 This is what the Lord says: “What did your ancestors find wrong with me that led them to stray so far from me?... 7 you defiled my land and corrupted the possession I had promised you… worthless idols… 13 “For my people have done two evil things: They have abandoned me—the fountain of living water. And they have dug for themselves cracked cisterns that can hold no water at all! 14 “Why has Israel become a slave? Why has he been carried away as plunder?... 17 And you have brought this upon yourselves by rebelling against the Lord your God, even though he was leading you on the way!...19 Your wickedness will bring its own punishment. Your turning from me will shame you. You will see what an evil, bitter thing it is to abandon the Lord your God and not to fear him… 20 “Long ago I broke the yoke that oppressed you and tore away the chains of your slavery, but still you said, ‘I will not serve you.’… 21 But I was the one who planted you, choosing a vine of the purest stock—the very best. How did you grow into this corrupt wild vine? 22 No amount of soap or lye can make you clean… 23 “You say, ‘That’s not true! I haven’t worshiped the images of Baal!’ But how can you say that? Go and look in any valley in the land! Face the awful sins you have done. You are like a restless female camel desperately searching for a mate…. 25 But you say, ‘Save your breath. I’m in love with these foreign gods, and I can’t stop loving them now!’… 27 To an image carved from a piece of wood they say, ‘You are my father.’ To an idol chiseled from a block of stone they say, ‘You are my mother.’ They turn their backs on me, but in times of trouble they cry out to me, ‘Come and save us!’ 28 But why not call on these gods you have made? When trouble comes, let them save you if they can!... 29 Why do you accuse me of doing wrong? You are the ones who have rebelled,” says the Lord….33 “How you plot and scheme to win your lovers. Even an experienced prostitute could learn from you!... 35 And yet you say, ‘I have done nothing wrong. Surely God isn’t angry with me!’… you flit from one ally to another asking for help. But your new friends in Egypt will let you down, just as Assyria did before…. 3:1 “If a man divorces a woman and she goes and marries someone else, he will not take her back again, for that would surely corrupt the land. But you have prostituted yourself with many lovers, so why are you trying to come back to me?”… 2 “You have polluted the land with your prostitution and your wickedness. … 3 Yet you are completely shameless. 4 Yet you say to me… 5 Surely you won’t be angry forever! Surely you can forget about it!’ So you talk, but you keep on doing all the evil you can.” 6 …the Lord said to me, “Have you seen what fickle Israel has done? Like a wife who commits adultery, Israel has worshiped other gods on every hill and under every green tree. 7 I thought, ‘After she has done all this, she will return to me.’ But she did not return… 8 I divorced faithless Israel because of her adultery. … 9 Israel treated it all so lightly—she thought nothing of committing adultery by worshiping idols… 12 This is what the Lord says: “Come home to me again, for I am merciful. I will not be angry with you forever. 13 Only acknowledge your guilt. Admit that you rebelled against the Lord your God and committed adultery against Me… 14 “Return home … I will bring you back to the land of Israel…. 15 And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will guide you with knowledge and understanding…. 22 “come back to me, and I will heal your wayward hearts.” 4:1 “if you wanted to return to me, you could. You could throw away your detestable idols and stray away no more.
New Living Translation (NLT)
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manoj
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Post by manoj on May 2, 2017 12:44:46 GMT -6
I can say that there was a man and woman who were part of a small group I led several years ago. James and Alma. They were living together. Alma was a long-time believer and had at one point been very active in and committed to her faith. James was not. He had almost no knowledge of Christianity or the Bible at all. Our small group was evangelistic n nature by design, so it wasn't uncommon to have people who were involved in all sorts of sin be a part of our group. But what about Alma? Should I have refused for her to be part of it? Should our group have disfellowshipped her? At some point they decided to get married. The pastor of the church said that in order for him to marry them, they had to commit to living separately and refrain from sex for 6 months. They did and he did marry them. Did I and did the church act rightly or wrongly here? jb JB, A question I must ask is: what was the purpose of this condition of 'living separately and refrain from sex for 6 months? |
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manoj
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Post by manoj on May 2, 2017 13:10:21 GMT -6
elacey wrote "After two failed marriages I don't think the church has any business telling couples they can't have choose to live together."
I am not particularly commenting on it, but highlighting it to build a point.
It seems we in the church in general are tolerating some sins while penalizing others. We more readily embrace the homosexuals and lesbians than those living together or divorced or remarried.
And how do you define marriage?
Marriage certificate is just a piece of paper, it does not keep the marriage. The wheels that sustain the marriage are commitment, love, respect and understanding. You cannot legalize those things.
You may be married on the paper and living like a single. But, nobody checks those things. On the other hand, if a married couple has decided to separate but still living together, are they sinning? Because they have decided that the marriage is over, so practically they are two singles living together. Is that acceptable?
"In general I think churches are too legalistic."
I agree. But, we seem to be conveniently legalistic. You see there are groups lobbying for those living together or divorcees or remarried, but there are groups lobbying for the LGBT. So, we would rather embrace the LGTB than the other set of people.
I live in Barbados. I have heard of homosexuals being involved in ministries, while the divorcees and remarried ones are sidelined.
@jb, thank you for your candid disclosure.
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JB
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Dedicated TruthSeeker
Posts: 308
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Gender: Male
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Post by JB on May 2, 2017 16:35:31 GMT -6
I can say that there was a man and woman who were part of a small group I led several years ago. James and Alma. They were living together. Alma was a long-time believer and had at one point been very active in and committed to her faith. James was not. He had almost no knowledge of Christianity or the Bible at all. Our small group was evangelistic n nature by design, so it wasn't uncommon to have people who were involved in all sorts of sin be a part of our group. But what about Alma? Should I have refused for her to be part of it? Should our group have disfellowshipped her? At some point they decided to get married. The pastor of the church said that in order for him to marry them, they had to commit to living separately and refrain from sex for 6 months. They did and he did marry them. Did I and did the church act rightly or wrongly here? jb JB, A question I must ask is: what was the purpose of this condition of 'living separately and refrain from sex for 6 months? Manoj - I believe the pastor felt this would allow them to show their commitment to God and to godly marriage. I didn't ask him about it, but knowing him I'd guess he'd say this was to show repentance. 6 months, of course, would have been an arbitrary time frame. |
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JB
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Dedicated TruthSeeker
Posts: 308
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Gender: Male
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Post by JB on May 2, 2017 17:17:01 GMT -6
Regarding legalism...
Legalism and grace cannot coexist as paths to righteousness. Legalism is anti-grace. Therefore it is anti-Christian.
Grace isn't a way to become righteous. It is a way to be considered righteous despite our failings - God looking upon me more favorably than my life would warrant because Christ took the penalty for my unrighteousness that I would otherwise take myself.
It is rebirth, not grace - and certainly not Law - that develops righteousness in you or me. It is transformation.
What is righteousness? Living as God wants us to live, being who God wants us to be.
Is it accurate to say that righteousness is equal to living up to His Law through transformation rather than through obedience?
I was going to answer my question with "yes," but I don't think so.
In the secular realm, why do we have laws? Because there is crime. We have laws only because people will do bad stuff. I guarantee I would drive faster than I do if there were no speed limit signs and legal consequences for violating them. Laws also exist to help determine the level of punishment for violating them.
If no one would do bad stuff, we wouldn't need laws.
Likewise, if we are transformed by God, there is no Law to live up to. So I don't think it's worthwhile to say that righteousness means living up to His Law.
Instead, it is being like Him, thinking like Him, living as He wants us to live because He has transformed us as new new creations, not because of obedience.
Our transformation won't be complete on this side of the grave, so we'll still fall short of those standards at times.
The standards, then, are measures for how we are doing in this new rebirth. They are ways to check ourselves to see how much or how little we've allowed God to change us to be like Him, to be like His Son who set the perfect example of being human.
Throughout the Bible, and especially in the New Testament, we learn what the standard looks like that we should measure our transformation against. That includes all kinds of things: How we react to others when they are in need. How we treat our enemies. How loving we are toward those who have not experienced this transformation. How we spend our time. What we spend our money on. How much we serve others the way He served us. How we approach marriage. How we raise our kids. How we handle sexual temptations. Etc.
We are also instructed throughout the New Testament to spur each other on to good works and to hold each other accountable. This is not from a judgmental or legalistic perspective, it is from a transformational perspective. We are to be part of each other's transformation into the image of Christ.
I'll repeat what I started with: Legalism and grace cannot coexist as paths to righteousness. Legalism is anti-grace. Therefore it is anti-Christian.
Condemning another believer because of sin is wrong. It is legalistic, anti-grace.
Talking openly about what God has communicated as His standards of righteousness in order to help myself and others assess the extent of transformation is right. It is an act of grace.
Looking in the Bible for the things that make me like Christ, assess my level of transformation by them, and invite God to transform me further is worship.
To discard or reject things He has laid out for me as measures of my transformation is rebellion.
The New Testament obliterated the Law. It did not obliterate measures of righteousness. It provided a way to get there!
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